Fuel Economy

[mart999]

I did wonder how effective the register was.
I bought an lpg'd T4 back along (3.2 V6 petrol) & when I came to sell it, buyer wanted it on the register for his insurance policy. I was new to lpg at that stage and 1st I'd heard about the register. Anyway, I got it put on but the ball ache of getting that retrospectively done was a nightmare. It didn't feel quite right after that either!

 

[Lpgc]

I did wonder how effective the register was.
I bought an lpg'd T4 back along (3.2 V6 petrol) & when I came to sell it, buyer wanted it on the register for his insurance policy. I was new to lpg at that stage and 1st I'd heard about the register. Anyway, I got it put on but the ball ache of getting that retrospectively done was a nightmare. It didn't feel quite right after that either!

I'll put any of my conversions on (trade body's private farce database) if/when any of my customers want but it costs me £80 to do it and I ask for the £80. I can do that at any time and without having to see the vehicle again. Other than that I have no intention of supporting the farcical scheme by being a member (and having to sign for what is intents and purposes a non disclosure agreement). Around 2% of my customers eventually go on to have their vehicle registered on the database through me. The list of insurers who want LPG vehicles to be on the database is getting comparatively smaller all the time, and even some insurers that want LPG vehicles to be on the database will say it doesn't matter if the vehicle's fuel type is registered as petrol/LPG on the logbook or has passed an MOT since the LPG was fitted.

Their database/scheme is supposedly about safety, yet they made their own rules (COP11 standard lower case S) instead of just going by the relevant BSEN Standard upper case S (which over-rules anything in their rules anyway), the safety points their scheme covers are just simple schoolboy nuts and bolts stuff and a bit about not fitting pipes too close to exhaust pipes, all very obvious. A vehicle doesn't even have to be capable of running properly on LPG to pass one of their tests, engine could cut out every time during deceleration (like when approaching a roundabout) with consequential loss of power steering and brake boost.. just one example of a real world safety point not covered by their scheme. Other none basic safety stuff not covered by their scheme includes drive-ability.. the car could drive like a pig after conversion and still pass their test, and if the owner then complained to UKLPG the car drove like a pig there is still nothing they could/would do about it. Their scheme has been much the same for a long time, in the meantime I have been instrumental in getting DVSA to change the MOT to now cover aspects of the LPG system including all the nuts/bolts/leaks/piping type aspects. I also advised DVSA that a vehicle presented for MOT running on LPG should not have the MIL light on (they and many members would have preferred an exception for the MIL light being lit if the vehicle was presented for MOT running on LPG). The changes to the MOT alone pretty much make any basic supposed safety scheme such as this trade body's scheme unnecessary. In my experience most members could tell you if your main gas feed pipe from the tank to the engine bay was taped to your exhaust but if you had a drive-ability problem they couldn't fix it.

I had a big argument about UKLPG on LPGforum years ago.. Most of my suggestions were taken on board and eventually put into practice by DVSA. The boss of UKLPG asked if he could come visit me, I agreed, we had a nice chat... He agreed with most things I said, and also said he wasn't much concerned anyway as he was retiring in a few years! He couldn't argue with me much anyway, he knew I have pics of LPG tanks fitted by his members held on with M6 bolts, fill points fitted inside vehicles, he knew I converted vehicles his members couldn't, fixed LPG issues his members couldn't and had the best rep.

If they had a scheme that worked to improve safety or improve general standards I'd be all for it... But they certainly don't, and to me it seems the most likely reason an installer might want to be a member is so that they can repeat misinformation such as 'its only legal to get it done by a UKLPG member' in the hope that will bolster sales.

 

[ColytonJohn]

I had, or rather still have as it's slowly sinking into the Devon earth of my garden, a LPG fitted Mitsubishi Galant I bought for commuting. It came from a company car disposal business and was fine on long steady drives which my commute was and proved itself cheaper to run than my motorcycles. In traffic it was a different story as any attempt to open the throttle too quickly would be accompanied by an explosion underneath the bonnet which always blew the air box apart. I became very quick at replacing the zip ties that held it together. I never got to the bottom of the problem but suspected the 1 metre length of pipe between the vaporiser and the injectors may have been a factor. That's academic as it's now only fit for scrap but I mention this for two reasons: at the time there were no lpg garages nearby that I could take it to and at no time did an insurance company ever question the quality of the installation. I'm glad things have improved in the years since then

 

[Steve Thompson]

I had, or rather still have as it's slowly sinking into the Devon earth of my garden, a LPG fitted Mitsubishi Galant I bought for commuting. It came from a company car disposal business and was fine on long steady drives which my commute was and proved itself cheaper to run than my motorcycles. In traffic it was a different story as any attempt to open the throttle too quickly would be accompanied by an explosion underneath the bonnet which always blew the air box apart. I became very quick at replacing the zip ties that held it together. I never got to the bottom of the problem but suspected the 1 metre length of pipe between the vaporiser and the injectors may have been a factor. That's academic as it's now only fit for scrap but I mention this for two reasons: at the time there were no lpg garages nearby that I could take it to and at no time did an insurance company ever question the quality of the installation. I'm glad things have improved in the years since then

Great car that Galant.
I had the 2.5 v6.
Put 470,000 miles on it from new and only replaced a seatbelt, radiator & starter motor.
Scrap'd it because of a wheel bearing.
Stupid really.

 

[Lpgc]

In traffic it was a different story as any attempt to open the throttle too quickly would be accompanied by an explosion underneath the bonnet which always blew the air box apart

You didn't mention the year of it's production, which engine it had or what LPG bits were fitted.. or I'd already have some better insights into what the problems were.. But I'd have sorted it anyway ;-)

 

[ColytonJohn]

My Galant is a year 2000, 2litre, 4 cylinder estate. Being an ex company car no doubt intended to cruise the motorway network I'd guess it was converted soon after purchase. It currently has IRO 148/k miles and I stopped using it 9 years ago when it failed the mot on emissions but, as this coincided with ceasing the job I bought it to commute to, I didn't bother sorting the problem and just started driving my Land Rovers again. It's been suggested the emissions may have been high due to engine wear from unlubricated gas or just incorrectly tested but never seriously investigated. I don't recall what system it is but I could evict the spiders to check. The vaporiser was tucked down below the battery necessitating a long pipe run to the injectors. Not the best installation but it worked well enough to convince that gas is a must for the Elgrand.

 

[Ste]

Just to add my two penneth on consumption as a new owner. First real drive today down to Devon. 225miles, 220 of which were motorway and duel carriageway. Brimmed the tank at start and at end of journey. No computer so had to calculate. 60mph all the way, no real traffic to speak of, only used the breaks half a dozen times. 10.8 km per litre, approx 28 to the gallon. Series 2 e51 3.5 litre. Happy days

 

[Dane Cauffeur]

We have had the Elgrandy 6 months now - HW star, 3.5 2WD, 70k miles now running standard petrol. Done quite a few long runs in crap weather and fuel consumption always seemed good. Done at trip from Northumberland coast to Keswick then on to Wasdale and back with three adults luggage and 170kg of dogs. I have done this exact trip a couple of times a year for the last 30 years in loads of different vehicles and found this trip gives the mpg I will get overall from the vehicle. I drove at speed limits and overall I got 28 mpg as well. Exactly the same as our Volvo V70R but BETTER than all the 4x4 we have owned and a Mercedes Vito Dual Liner rust bucket (27 mpg). Considering comfort, ease of driving and how it never felt sluggish we are over the moon with the mpg of our 2 ton bus. One thing I would say is the auto takes a while to decide to go into 5th and quick to come out with a bit of accelerator when really it does not have to. If I think we will be staying above 55 for some time (A road/motorway) I put it into manual and knocked it up to 5th and the motor goes lovely and quiet and pulls absolutely fine. If I accelerate to 60 and hold it then it can not decide to go into 5th or not. I now accelerate to 60 take off accelerator completely then press it again and it drops into 5th fine. I don't have an obsession with mpg just cant stop fiddling about with our new toy.

 

[Steve J]

Picking up on the lpg discussions, where do people put the tanks and what size can you fit?
I had a vectors dual-fuel 10 years ago, but the lpg tank was at in the wheel-well and only 22litres. I spent more time at Morrison’s than driving.

 

[Lpgc]

Usually the most sensible place to fit the LPG tank on an Elgrand is in the location of the spare wheel. Obviously this means that the spare wheel must be left at home or carried inside... no big loss considering most Elgrands have a space saver spare wheel that doesn't take up much luggage space or the owner might prefer to carry a can of instant tyre repair and a cheap 12v compressor. I fit a tank in the spare wheel space rated at 93L and will hold over 80L of LPG.

Vectors.... If that's a Vectra dual fuel they should hold about 40L of gas so must have been something wrong with yours which I could certainly have sorted. My dad had a Vectra dual fuel.

I am the go to person for LPG conversions and have converted over 150 Elgrands to LPG including my own.

Simon 07816237240

 

[Steve J]

Hi Simon,
Yes, it may have been a 20kg tank in the Ventura rather than 20 litre, but it didn’t give a lot of range when travelling 160 miles a day.

(Space- savers are my pet hate btw. We will be using the bus for towing which means using a space saver isn’t possible. I’ve had to put a full-size spare in the kuga, which is only possible by leaving it deflated.)

80litres is better than 40, but it doesn’t give you a great range; Is there anything to replace the petrol tank and then fit a small petrol tank rather than the other way around?

 

[Andy700]

So, regarding accuracy of fuel economy, I just did a 261 mile trip to Essex and back again over the weekend. I've always known that my speedo is a hefty 10% over-optimistic regarding the speed that I'm travelling at, and was always a little concerned that my fuel economy readings, poor as they already were, might actually be 10% worse than the already scary figures. Having travelled a known long distance I can now say that over 261 miles, the van thought it had gone 268 miles. So out by just over 2.5%. Thankfully there must be a certain amount of needle inaccuracy on the speedo as well as tire circumference discrepancy I suppose.

What it means of course is that my fuel economy is actually 2.5% worse than my calculations. Averaging 17.6 mpg over nearly 4000 miles, with a PB tank of 23.4 mpg for basically all motorway driving - albeit with an hour of heavy stop-start traffic - means my true average is probably more like 17.2 ish.

I genuinely don't understand how people average well into the twenties with the same engine as I have. I noticed a slight improvement at 36psi and I've noticed no change by moving from 97 to 95 fuel.

 

[Steve J]

I’ll take that as a “no” then.....

 

[Lpgc]

I’ll take that as a “no” then.....

Sorry Steve mate, meant to answer after looking under mine but most of the time I've spent under mine recently has been due to fitting the replacement engine.
Still haven't measured up where the petrol tank is but for certain a smaller replacement smaller petrol tank won't be available off a shelf. There are firms that produce smaller replacement petrol tanks out of steel for some vehicles (with idea that an LPG tank could take up the freed space) but these tanks are usually only available for certain vehicles such as for example Landrover Discovery's. The replacement tanks come with brackets to mount straight up to the car and have the correct fitting for the original petrol pump to attach (screw on top etc). If such a tank isn't produced/available off shelf it wouldn't be too difficult to make one from sheet steel but it would be difficult to make one with the correct fitting for the petrol pump to screw onto.
Although I haven't measured Elgrand petrol tanks they don't seem very deep, the lack of depth would of course prevent a deeper LPG tank being fitted... The best way to get decent capacity from a shallow depth is to go wide which in LPG terms would mean fitting a toroidal (spare wheel) design tank rather than a cylinder.
I will try to do some measurements at an early point, maybe I'll talk to @stevemen to see if he has any pics/data on Elgrand petrol tank fuel pump fittings and then see what I can come up with but this is a very busy period for me.

Cheers, Simon

 

[Custard]

Peak District up those hills didn't do the MPG any good either

 

[Ladygogs]

Expect poor economy. Really. I'm not gonna lie to you.

They are a 2 tonne bus with pretty appalling aerodynamics and large engines. They are designed for comfort and luxury, not for cheap motoring.

As a brief run down:

E50 QD32 3.2 Diesel - 26mpg average. 18mpg around the doors. 36mpg on long runs at 55.

E50 ZD30 3.0 Diesel - 28mpg average. 20mpg around the doors. 40mpg on long runs at 55.

E50 VG33 3.3 V6 - 18mpg average. 14mpg around the doors. 28mpg on long runs at 55.

E50 VQ35 3.5 V6 - 16mpg average. 12mpg around the doors. 28mpg on long runs at 55.

E51 VQ25 2.5 V6 - 22mpg average. 18mpg around the doors. 32mpg on long runs at 55.

E51 VQ35 3.5 V6 - 20mpg average. 16mpg around the doors. 30mpg on long runs at 55.

These are worst case scenarios. If you are getting less than this, you have a problem (either with your engine or your right foot). If you go into buying an Elgrand with these figures in mind, then you won't be swearing 6 months down the line when you are on first name terms with every petrol station attendant within 30 miles of your house.

Really useful, Thank you Karl.

 

[ColytonJohn]

Really useful, Thank you Karl.

Really useful? Yes, but I also found Karl's assessment really scary... didn't stop me buying one though

 

[Ladygogs]

Really useful? Yes, but I also found Karl's assessment really scary... didn't stop me buying one though

Hahah yeah it won't put me off either, mind is made up! It was interesting to see though that there is not that much difference between them if you know what I mean, I will probs go for an LPG conversion???

 

[Breadman23]

I have an E50 ZD30 average about 34mpg

 

[GingeKnievil]

@Karl seems to be bang on the money with regards to my 2.5L E51. With a mixture of motorway, A road, B road and stop/start city driving, I’m averaging 21.5 MPG. Tidy!