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Fuel Economy

NDS has versions for Windows and Android but Windows version is more comprehensive and easier to read.

Lpgc posted a great thread on how to look for duff cats using NDS2, worth a read as it goes through what good readings should look like.
 
Thank you for that. Must admit I went a bit cross-eyed reading through that and trying to get my head around it. In very simple terms, if the front lambda sensors are working, should the voltages on them be a) constantly varying and b) similar values assuming no blockages in either front cat?
 
Thanks for the mentions @LeStempy

The chip/kph to mph gizmo behind the dashboard normally affects only the cluster and fuel computer but in some cases can cause speed related error codes. At first (a long time ago) I didn't realise how the gizmo could only be connected to the cluster but also cause the fuel computer to work on miles per litre instead of km per litre. Then I realised that behind the scenes Elgrand speed is carried on 2 canbus channels, when a gizmo is fitted the engine ECU, transmission ECU, ABS etc continue to read speed in kph from one canbus speed channel that is unaffected by the gizmo. The gizmo does internal calculations to change the kph reading to a mph reading and outputs it on another canbus speed channel that the instrument cluster and fuel computer use. Sometimes the gizmos can cause speed related error codes, possibly because behind the scenes there is something that compares the speed data on the 2 channels but such errors don't normally cause a problem. Some gizmos though cause further problems, probably because they interfere with other normal canbus functionality. I've known them be the cause of engine misfires and gearboxes not changing gear properly.

There are effectively 2 parts to a lambda sensor, there's the sensing part and there's the heater part. The sensors need to be hot to work properly so they have a built in heater. If you're getting an error code for a lambda sensor heater it's usually because there is a problem with a lambda sensor heater or simply because the lambda sensor isn't even connected. It is unusual to have a heater problem on more than 1 lambda sensor at a time. The sensors are in the exhaust so are heated by exhaust gasses anyway but the heater is still used (and used more at idle or if the engine has only recently been started so the exhaust isn't up to temp). Being in the hot exhaust the sensors are usually capable of giving a fairly accurate mixture reading even if the heater doesn't work (after the exhaust has warmed up) but that doesn't necessarily mean the ECU won't ignore a lambda sensor reading if it has detected that it's heater isn't working properly. Sometimes a lambda sensor will fail in a way that sees the heater circuit get connected to the sensor circuit, which can make the lambda sensor read constantly lean or rich, which can cause the ECU to make the actual mixture very rich or very lean. A shorted lambda heater circuit can also affect readings from other lambda sensors and cause error codes for lambda sensors that would be working OK if it wasn't for the other problem lambda sensor that is shorted.. For example if the heater of 1 lambda circuit is shorted it will likely cause a heater error code for that sensor but it can also cause a heater error code for another sensor, this is probably because inside the ECU the 2 lambda sensors both get their heater power from the same electrical feed so the voltage drop due to the short on 1 sensor also causes a voltage drop for the other sensor which causes a fault to be detected for that sensor too. If you're getting multiple lambda sensor heater error codes due to one lambda sensor heater being shorted it is sometimes possible to tell which lambda sensor is shorted by interpreting live data, especially if the fault is intermittent because if intermittent the other lambda sensors that are not broken/shorted will reflect actual mixture in the periods when the faulty sensor isn't shorted even though the faulty sensor continues to give an extreme reading.

You've had error codes for all 4 lambda sensor heaters but since clearing error codes you're only getting errors for the front lambda sensor heaters, so it does seem very likely that one or both front lambda sensor heaters are at fault and on that basis it may seem a good idea to change both lambda sensors, and that could even turn out to be a very good idea, but still before I did that I would want to make sure it wasn't one of the rear lambda sensors at fault causing the front lambda sensors to seem at fault. When you first start an E51 engine the ECU holds voltage of rear lambda sensor readings at around 0.3V, even the live data readings don't show the actual voltage of the rear sensors until the engine has warmed up to some extent, it is unlikely but possible that the ECU also doesn't immediately pick up on rear lambda sensor heater circuit faults until the engine has warmed up a bit. I would be inclined to do some live data testing before just changing the 2 front lambda sensors but if you do look at live data readings you've got to remember that rear sensor lambda voltages won't 'flick' like front sensor voltages do if your front cats are still in place, not even after the engine has fully warmed up. During doing the same live data readings when the engine is fully warmed up, if you get error codes for rear lambda sensor heaters it will make diagnosis a bit more difficult unless you have already seen (due to live data readings) that the fault seems to be with a front lambda sensor heater.
 
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Thanks for the very detailed reply Simon. I'll try to get some readings with my reader this evening and see if I can make sense of it.

The reason I'm looking at sorting it now is that the car is going into the garage on Tuesday of next week to have rear decat pipes fitted, new drop links and new ARB bushes fitted (all of which I assume will involve having it up on a lift). If I am going to bite the bullet and replace the front lambda sensors, that seems like the sensible time to ask the garage to change them, whilst they have (albeit limited, by the sound of things) access.

Interesting to read though that the MPH/KPH conversion chip potentially could be affecting the stated fuel economy reading the car is displaying - as I mentioned before my average is lingering below 5, but the car seems to be running fine and objectively the gauge doesn't seem to be dropping as quickly as I would expect it to if the car genuinely is doing c. 4.5km/L fuel economy.
 
Urgh, so it appears my Elgrand had a Stevie Wonder-style MOT not long before I bought it... my garage video called me after they got the car up on ramps to show me the steering rack is badly leaking, and several suspension bushes have deteriorated to the point there's very little intact rubber left and need to be replaced, which seems to be the source of the knocking suspension rather than the drop links... none of which was even mentioned as an advisory on the MOT... hey ho, parts ordered from JDM Car Parts including the two front lambdas, I'm sure it'll drive much nicer by the time it has pillaged my wallet... New drop links might as well go on whilst they are taking the suspension apart anyway, save doing it again anytime soon...
 
@-Lummox- has any work been done on the exhaust that could've affected the lambda sensors?
 
Not to my knowledge but I haven't had the car that long. It's still running the OE exhaust including all 4 cats (or at least it was, one of the jobs on the list this week is the rear bypass pipes). TBH since the sensors were £65 a piece from JDM I might as well change them whilst they're wrenching on the exhaust anyway if only as process of elimination. I'll be putting quite a few miles on it at the end of the month driving to/around Devon and Cornwall and I'd rather it wasn't any thirstier than it needs to be for that.
 
No motorway traffic?

City traffic is an absolute wallet killer
Yes that's a mix of both although I am probably a little heavy footed even on the motorways
 
I seem to average 16mpg in my 3.5
I do about 70% motorway and 30%urban in distance, but in time i spend queuing to get on the motorway about 50% and 50% driving, and as a result I get about 18mpg average, my odometer and Speedo are accurate as this daily drive has been done in many different vehicles over the past 30years and Speedo is accurate with sat nav then divide that with fuel used .
I have had an E51 series 1 , 2 wheel drive 1.8tons for since may 2007 it was the first E51taxed insured and used on the road in UK.
And the last two years I have a series 3, 4wheel drive 2.25tons both 3.5 both similar MPG.
both have been converted to LPG which has saved me a fortune over the years, even with replacing the engine due to cat failure.
Ps , I would no go of the computer for MPG.
 
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Thanks for the mentions @LeStempy

The chip/kph to mph gizmo behind the dashboard normally affects only the cluster and fuel computer but in some cases can cause speed related error codes. At first (a long time ago) I didn't realise how the gizmo could only be connected to the cluster but also cause the fuel computer to work on miles per litre instead of km per litre. Then I realised that behind the scenes Elgrand speed is carried on 2 canbus channels, when a gizmo is fitted the engine ECU, transmission ECU, ABS etc continue to read speed in kph from one canbus speed channel that is unaffected by the gizmo. The gizmo does internal calculations to change the kph reading to a mph reading and outputs it on another canbus speed channel that the instrument cluster and fuel computer use. Sometimes the gizmos can cause speed related error codes, possibly because behind the scenes there is something that compares the speed data on the 2 channels but such errors don't normally cause a problem. Some gizmos though cause further problems, probably because they interfere with other normal canbus functionality. I've known them be the cause of engine misfires and gearboxes not changing gear properly.

There are effectively 2 parts to a lambda sensor, there's the sensing part and there's the heater part. The sensors need to be hot to work properly so they have a built in heater. If you're getting an error code for a lambda sensor heater it's usually because there is a problem with a lambda sensor heater or simply because the lambda sensor isn't even connected. It is unusual to have a heater problem on more than 1 lambda sensor at a time. The sensors are in the exhaust so are heated by exhaust gasses anyway but the heater is still used (and used more at idle or if the engine has only recently been started so the exhaust isn't up to temp). Being in the hot exhaust the sensors are usually capable of giving a fairly accurate mixture reading even if the heater doesn't work (after the exhaust has warmed up) but that doesn't necessarily mean the ECU won't ignore a lambda sensor reading if it has detected that it's heater isn't working properly. Sometimes a lambda sensor will fail in a way that sees the heater circuit get connected to the sensor circuit, which can make the lambda sensor read constantly lean or rich, which can cause the ECU to make the actual mixture very rich or very lean. A shorted lambda heater circuit can also affect readings from other lambda sensors and cause error codes for lambda sensors that would be working OK if it wasn't for the other problem lambda sensor that is shorted.. For example if the heater of 1 lambda circuit is shorted it will likely cause a heater error code for that sensor but it can also cause a heater error code for another sensor, this is probably because inside the ECU the 2 lambda sensors both get their heater power from the same electrical feed so the voltage drop due to the short on 1 sensor also causes a voltage drop for the other sensor which causes a fault to be detected for that sensor too. If you're getting multiple lambda sensor heater error codes due to one lambda sensor heater being shorted it is sometimes possible to tell which lambda sensor is shorted by interpreting live data, especially if the fault is intermittent because if intermittent the other lambda sensors that are not broken/shorted will reflect actual mixture in the periods when the faulty sensor isn't shorted even though the faulty sensor continues to give an extreme reading.

You've had error codes for all 4 lambda sensor heaters but since clearing error codes you're only getting errors for the front lambda sensor heaters, so it does seem very likely that one or both front lambda sensor heaters are at fault and on that basis it may seem a good idea to change both lambda sensors, and that could even turn out to be a very good idea, but still before I did that I would want to make sure it wasn't one of the rear lambda sensors at fault causing the front lambda sensors to seem at fault. When you first start an E51 engine the ECU holds voltage of rear lambda sensor readings at around 0.3V, even the live data readings don't show the actual voltage of the rear sensors until the engine has warmed up to some extent, it is unlikely but possible that the ECU also doesn't immediately pick up on rear lambda sensor heater circuit faults until the engine has warmed up a bit. I would be inclined to do some live data testing before just changing the 2 front lambda sensors but if you do look at live data readings you've got to remember that rear sensor lambda voltages won't 'flick' like front sensor voltages do if your front cats are still in place, not even after the engine has fully warmed up. During doing the same live data readings when the engine is fully warmed up, if you get error codes for rear lambda sensor heaters it will make diagnosis a bit more difficult unless you have already seen (due to live data readings) that the fault seems to be with a front lambda sensor heater.
Also if you have factory radar cruse control with BA this will not work until it is reverted back to kph , took me quite a while to figure out why my cruise control was not working, and the chip behind the dash was fitted by a moron with one brain cell just cut and twisted wires.
I also had to take the Speedo needle off and repossession it, now very accurate with sat nav.
 
Comparing my fuel economy since changing to E85, the average consumption on petrol was 7.2km/l (20mpg) which has now dropped to 5.7km/l(16mpg) on E85. However, the advantageous price per litre means that the cost per km has dropped from 0.22€/km on petrol to 0.12€/km on E85.
 
There is some data on Fuelly but maybe best to remain blissfully ignorant tbh.

https://www.fuelly.com/car/Nissan/elgrand_
 
Got 27mpg going to work on the regular roads without traffic, 30mph. Then 21mpg coming home along the motorway Can I hit the elusive 30 tomorrow morning??
 
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