Confused over E51 vs E52

[Padrino]

Morning all,
Once again I need the collective brains to bring some clarity on the subject. As you probably know I am actively looking to get my first Elgrand. A lot of hours spent reading around here and looking at classified around the net. One thing that I am stumbling across the board is the fact that 2010 and even 2011 E52's are advertised in many occasions on a lower price than E52's. The 52's in general are with a bit higher mileage (usually around 70 to 90K) but nevertheless they are the "new" generation vans. I know that they are FWD or 4WD instead of RWD and 4WD on the E51 but I just can't figure out why they seems to be "cheaper".
Are they (E52's) less of a van than the previous generation? Did they have the same issues as E51? Do they need to be de-cated, undersealed?
In other word: Why you can get 2010/11 E52 for less than 2008/10 E51?
I will appreciate very much your input on this. I've tried to use the search function in the forum but it doesn't seems to return any results covering the above.

Thanks
Alex

 

[Gwilo365]

Probably a combination of factors - smaller internally. Higher mileages. A CVT gearbox that has well documented issues in other Nissan vehicles.
But, horses for courses.

 

[Padrino]

Probably a combination of factors - smaller internally. Higher mileages. A CVT gearbox that has well documented issues in other Nissan vehicles.
But, horses for courses.

Oh yes, I never thought about the gearbox. Very valid point. Thanks Joe

 

[MarkT]

2010 and even 2011 E52's are advertised in many occasions on a lower price than E52's. [you mean E51s] The 52's in general are with a bit higher mileage (usually around 70 to 90K) but nevertheless they are the "new" generation vans. [...] I just can't figure out why they seems to be "cheaper".

Higher mileage will make them cheaper (plot a graph!) while they may also be lacking in specs (3.5 engine, 4WD, sunroof, curtains etc all command a premium).

In addition, private sellers are invariably cheaper (lower overheads, no warranty, more than one owner, generally a year or years exposure to salt on roads...)

Finally, not all traders are equal. E.g. Winchester on this forum is a small scale trader who has cars at frankly uncompetitive pricing to many... but when you look at what he does to them (and the higher standard of car he starts with) he's actually really good value - one of those genuine enthusiasts that is more interested in doing a proper nice job than maximising margins.

Are they (E52's) less of a van than the previous generation?

The E51 has a bit more headroom than the E52, and you can get into the back through the cab. It's a good alternative for someone looking for a VW transporter vehicle.

The E52 is more of an estate car and with a bit less headroom. Still awesome but a much different vehicle than, say, the E50 was to the E51, as it doesn't make for quite as spacious a day van or camper and cab access to back isn't as good...

Did they have the same issues as E51? Do they need to be de-cated, undersealed?

My understanding is that the front cats are still sufficiently close to the engine that a cautious owner will want to remove or decore the front cats or, if budget is limited, decore or remove the rear cats.

It's the location of the front cats close to the engine that is the root cause of the problem. All cats can fail but the front cats closeness to the engine means earlier failure (hotter) and more catastrophic failure.

Underseal is a must on UK roads or you'll have MOT advisories and failures a few years down the road, expensive welding jobs and a massively depreciated or scrapped vehicle. Not all undersealing jobs are equal - another reason for going with someone like Winchester.

I will appreciate very much your input on this. I've tried to use the search function in the forum but it doesn't seems to return any results covering the above.

The search function is crap. It ignores 3 letter words, so eg E52 is ignored
Use the optional Google search function

 

[MarkT]

Oh yes, I never thought about the gearbox.

I understand the E52 gearbox is a different design to the problem ones
Probably worth getting the fluid changed if it's a high mileage one... and definitely worth checking the fluid in case of abuse and premature ageing.

 

[Padrino]

Finally, not all traders are equal. E.g. Winchester on this forum is a small scale trader who has cars at frankly uncompetitive pricing to many.

Funny you should mention him. I am waiting on call from Adrian for a L42 colour S3 Elgrand that should arrive tomorrow. He had promised me that as soon as the van in his yard I will get detailed photos and full spec. I've already talked to him few times and just waiting now.
I've spoken with Matt as well as he is the other one very highly regarded for his preparation of the vans.

 

[victor101]

Some very valid points from Markt, I would add that another big factor might be the current lack of camper conversion for the E52. The E51 value is (over) inflated a bit as its a good option for a camper conversion if you want a smaller camper. If you look at the value of the VW T5 which is a similar age to the E51, you are likely to pay 7-10k for the van without a conversion and its a super boring basic van for that price. At least the E51 is more comfortable, normally with lower miles, better equipped..so many T5s do not even have aircon!

I think there will be some E52 campers in the next 12-18 months that might drive a little more interest there.

I have also noticed that a lot of the cheap E52's listed are quite entry level basic cars rather than ones with lots of spec and nicer bodykits. Whereas a lot of the E51s coming in seem to have lots of options.

The Japanese press seem to also suggest that the Elgrand is not winning the battle in Japan, that the Alphard is the clear victor. The Alphard started to outsell the Elgrand during the E51 years and the E52 did not turn that around. So it could also be related to the E52 not being that string in Japan and so the prices just don't go that high.

The CAT issue is not an E52 problem, there hasn't been any evidence of that happening and E52 owners do not decat. I was a very early E52 owner and had my rear decatted as a 'just in case', but I have not heard of anyone else doing it and nobody having that issue.

I think it would come down to what you need it for. Often People who have driven both agree that the E52 is a better drive, its more refined and comfortable. But if you want to throw mountain bikes or a wardrobe in the back then look at the E51.

 

[JohnK]

The CAT issue is not an E52 problem, there hasn't been any evidence of that happening and E52 owners do not decat. I was a very early E52 owner and had my rear decatted as a 'just in case', but I have not heard of anyone else doing it and nobody having that issue.

Going off topic here but that is a risky conclusion. IMHO you were absolutely right to decat. All cats will fail eventually and with the quad system when the fronts do break down any debris will get stuck in the rears and create a blockage. If the rears are decatted the debris will most likely just get blown out the back. AA/RAC both put estimated lifespan of cats at 10 years/70k miles.
The fact that nobody has had an issue so far doesn't mean it won't happen. The E52 is younger so cats are less likely to be failing yet and there's far fewer of them in the UK so far.
If I had an E52 I would get the rears done as a sort of insurance. One off relatively small cost for that peace of mind.
I may be wrong but time will tell.

 

[cjholding]

E52 only has a single rear cat, if you did suffer front cat failure that blocked the rear cat the engine is far more likely to stall immediately minimising damage.

Conversely the E51 will continue to run (badly) on the unblocked bank.

 

[mikkb]

It's simple. Supply and demand.

 

[Padrino]

Thanks guys,
Some very sound advice and important points here.

 

[Simon]

Thanks for this. Really useful information and answered a lot of questions that had been bubbling up.

 

[Mouse]

Great discussion - a few more points
- The E52 is not as "cool" car as, say, Alphard in Japan because of the lower driver's position (known design choice that was not received well by the public)
- Many competitors, mainly Alphard and Vellfire in the newest generations have hybrid options which are missing on the E52 which drags demand down
- The E51 is actually quite a versatile car - i.e. S1/S2 can be customised up to replacement of head units without losing functionality, have a spare wheel, plenty of third-party accessories, arguably better suited as recreational vehicles due to a better 4wd system if required - so basically all this drives the demand up

 

[Daisuki JDM]

It’s absolutely a supply and demand thing. Good E51/NE51’s are much harder to find and when they are clean they fetch strong money. E52 is kind of a different sort of vehicle so not quite a newer version of an E51 other than by name.

 

[IceCreamMan]

E51 camper conversion is easy for the home handyman - and just as simple to convery back if necesary and you've kept all the parts. Gearbox stonger, but of course they are generally older and have higher Km's. I haven't driven an E52 but I imagine they are more carlike to drive?

 

[concept]

From a loading passengers and goods perspective:
-E51 is a walk through vehicle
-E52 is not

Generally when you want a big vehicle, walk through is a great plus point. I guess without it you are close to SUV sector.
Also from the front you can slip though to the back, that's a plus in its own - eg loading front passenger or yourself though side door, or going though to the back to sort out kids or items etc.

Drivetrain:
I think you will only notice FWD RWD AWD difference in harsh driving experiences.
Depends on what your driving is like really, if you have a preference too.

-E51 feels and looks old (it is) but drives gold IMO.
-E52 still has that element of mystery around its age, (if you had a private plate for example).

Size/Manoeuvring:
-E51 drives like a car to me, the cameras are more responsive I think its the type of camera it uses
-E52 feels longer to work with

 

[Steve Thompson]

E51 is class.
E52 is sh#t.

 

[LeStempy]

What you have to ask is do I want a Nissan Elgrand or do I want a Renault Espace?

 

[Simon]

What you have to ask is do I want a Nissan Elgrand or do I want a Renault Espace?

You could go for a Vel Satis

 

[Magnu]

E51 is class.
E52 is sh#t.

FIGHT!!