- Messages
- 3
- Reaction score
- 3
- Points
- 28
- Location
- Peterborough
- First Name
- Tayo
- Elgrand
- E51
- Region
- East Anglia
Mine is a 2009 E51, how do I know what series it is?
-
Welcome to the ElgrandOC forum. You will find that the majority of the forum is locked, but do not worry. You can unlock more content by registering to the forum completely free. Sign up is automatic, does not require email confirmation and is instant. Feel free to browse through the sections to see what topics have been covered before you register. You can register for an account by CLICKING HERE Once you have registered, you will unlock more of the forum content. You will not unlock all of the content until you have reached 10 posts. This is to give you an opportunity to chat to existing members and help to integrate you into the forum community. We are a friendly and helpful community and there is a wealth of infomation contained within the forum. Please feel free to register, introduce yourself and get to know your fellow members. Feel free to look at the Frequently Asked Questions section, the Meets/Events section and the Competition Section without having to register. We look forward to getting to know you and help you with any questions or problemd you have with your Elgrand.
LIST OF ACTIONS REGARDING E51/E52 CATALYTIC CONVERTER ISSUES
- Thread starter Reverend RobP
- Start date
- Messages
- 882
- Reaction score
- 1,807
- Points
- 338
- Location
- Bradford
- First Name
- David
- Elgrand
- E51
- Region
- Yorkshire
Option 1 before I collected it. But would not have known of it without this forum.
- Messages
- 4,164
- Reaction score
- 12,555
- Points
- 383
- Location
- York
- First Name
- Rob
- Elgrand
- E50
- Region
- Yorkshire
Yes the e51 series 3 still has the quad cat system, so likely to have the same issues.
- Messages
- 7
- Reaction score
- 2
- Points
- 33
- Location
- SUTHERLAND, NSW, 2232
- First Name
- Charles
- Elgrand
- E52
- Region
- Rest Of World
Great write up, thanks for the info!
- Messages
- 2,247
- Reaction score
- 4,501
- Points
- 373
- Location
- South Hampshire
- First Name
- Alan
- Elgrand
- E51
- Region
- South East
Is it safe to assume that that is the case?
My limited understanding is that the issue is not just down to the fact that it is a quad cat system per se but that the particular cat material and fuel strategy all combine to give the cat failures.
So maybe the cat material and fuel strategy in the S3 is different/improved? Does the S3 have the same over fuelling recalls for instance?
I've no idea personally, so just asking really.
- Messages
- 4,164
- Reaction score
- 12,555
- Points
- 383
- Location
- York
- First Name
- Rob
- Elgrand
- E50
- Region
- Yorkshire
Agree with what you're saying Alan. No idea if the series 3 had the same recall issues. The start of the cat problem was to do with the over fueling which prematurely killed the cat core. But from my understanding cats don't last forever what ever the vehicle. Thus still creating the possibility of cat failure further on in life, and still risk blocking in the rear set, due to the quad cat system. Fuel grade plays a part in it as well I believe, and none of us really know the history of how they've been treated in Japan.
- Messages
- 12,552
- Reaction score
- 36,879
- Points
- 473
- Location
- Normandie
- First Name
- André
- Elgrand
- E51
- Region
- Rest Of World
I suppose you could cross check cat part numbers across series to see if there is a difference, but better safe than sorry. Just rip them out for peace of mind.
- Messages
- 2,247
- Reaction score
- 4,501
- Points
- 373
- Location
- South Hampshire
- First Name
- Alan
- Elgrand
- E51
- Region
- South East
I tend to agree - for the price of 2 hours labour at a garage, why wouldn't you?
- Messages
- 3
- Reaction score
- 3
- Points
- 28
- Location
- Peterborough
- First Name
- Tayo
- Elgrand
- E51
- Region
- East Anglia
I've been running mine on SUPER unleaded petrol pending when I sort out the cat issue, will it make any difference?
Secondly, what is the issue with lpg on Elgrand. Apparently, some elgrands don't run well on lpg?
- Messages
- 4,164
- Reaction score
- 12,555
- Points
- 383
- Location
- York
- First Name
- Rob
- Elgrand
- E50
- Region
- Yorkshire
The 3.5 engine is recommended to run on super unleaded so you're doing the right thing there
As for lpg, if it's been set up right there shouldn't be any issues with running. There are theories that lpg runs hotter, and can cause cat damage too, but in that scenario all the cats can be removed due to the lower emmisions running on lpg so removes the risk.
If you're thinking of lpg, do your research and use a reputable installer
- Messages
- 12,552
- Reaction score
- 36,879
- Points
- 473
- Location
- Normandie
- First Name
- André
- Elgrand
- E51
- Region
- Rest Of World
Elgrands should run on LPG as well as they do on petrol. If they don't it's down to a fault or poor installation.
Super unleaded won't save you from cat issues. The only answer is to decore.
Super unleaded won't save you from cat issues. The only answer is to decore.
- Messages
- 3
- Reaction score
- 3
- Points
- 28
- Location
- Peterborough
- First Name
- Tayo
- Elgrand
- E51
- Region
- East Anglia
I didn't know it should be run on super unleaded, I just thought it is too beautiful to be on ordinary unleaded petrol. It requires an expensive whisky ( super unleaded)The 3.5 engine is recommended to run on super unleaded so you're doing the right thing there
As for lpg, if it's been set up right there shouldn't be any issues with running. There are theories that lpg runs hotter, and can cause cat damage too, but in that scenario all the cats can be removed due to the lower emmisions running on lpg so removes the risk.
If you're thinking of lpg, do your research and use a reputable installer
.The lpg installer i spoke to in my area (Peterborough) quoted £1600 but I'm not sure if he is reputable or not though i checked he is a member of drivelpg.co.uk.
Lastly this may sound like a daft question, is removing all the cats the same as 'cat decore'
- Messages
- 3
- Reaction score
- 3
- Points
- 28
- Location
- Peterborough
- First Name
- Tayo
- Elgrand
- E51
- Region
- East Anglia
Okkk, it's more clearer now. I intend to decore my Elgrand but I'm just confused as to the best option from the list provided by @Reverend RobP.
- Messages
- 3
- Reaction score
- 3
- Points
- 28
- Location
- Peterborough
- First Name
- Tayo
- Elgrand
- E51
- Region
- East Anglia
Does anyone know who can decore my Elgrand in Peterborough area?
Or probably just about any garage can do it
Or probably just about any garage can do it
- Messages
- 4,814
- Reaction score
- 13,497
- Points
- 373
- Location
- Mid Yorkshire
- First Name
- Simon
- Elgrand
- E51
- Region
- Yorkshire
Not that I mind either way but I thought it was agreed back in January that this thread should be about ways of preventing the cat issue rather than a place for discussing what causes the cat issue?
If we're talking what causes the cat issue we should bear in mind that Nissan recalled Elgrands in Japan (where they all obviously run on Japan fuel which some on forum reckon is superior to UK spec fuel).
Nissan blamed the problem on a fuelling issue, which a recall was supposed to address. I do know they go richer than most vehicles at full load (foot to the floor type situations) even when the recall has been done, and I do know that if the recall hasn't been done they continue to inject a little petrol (too lean a mixture to burn) during over-run situations.. (I can see all this in diagnostics readings from either NDS2 or from LPG software while running on petrol) the recall stopped the little petrol during over-run situations. I don't see the fuelling recall making any difference to longevity of cats.
If we're going to blame the cat problem on cats getting hot we should remember that cat temperature is related not only to the temperature of exhaust gasses coming out of the engine, cats produce a lot of heat themselves when they are doing their emissions clean-up work... chemical reactions take place inside the cat (which is the whole point of the cats), the chemical reactions are exo-thermic (produce heat and lots of it). Exhaust gas temperature may be hotter with a lean mixture than with a correct mixture or rich mixture but still cat temp may be a lot hotter with a rich mixture than with a lean mixture, because of the chemical reactions inside the cat that the rich mixture entails.
Just about all major emissions that a cat tries to clean up (HC and CO) are lower on LPG than on petrol, other emissions such as those from burning sulphur etc are negligible on LPG compared to petrol. Lower emissions from the engine means less work for the cats to do (less work as in less chemical reactions which means less heat produced by the cat). This is true provided other things are the same, such as mixture. During normal driving conditions we can presume mixture is correct if the engine warning light isn't on. A good LPG installer will set the high load mixture leaner on LPG than on petrol... On petrol there can be a slight power gain from running an overly rich mixture, on LPG maximum power will come from a mixture that while still slightly rich isn't as rich as the overly rich petrol mixture. The leaner mixture at high engine loads (foot down) will mean less work for the cats to do.
An LPG installer can prevent the engine getting an LPG mixture that is too lean to burn during over-run conditions regardless of whether the fuelling recall was done or not and can make the top end mixture leaner on LPG than on petrol regardless of whether the fuelling recall was done or not.
Another thing that will cause cats to heat up is if there is a difference between mixture on different engine cylinders on the same cylinder bank. The oxygen sensors in the exhaust measure spare (unburned) oxygen content and give a signal that corresponds closely to average mixture for 3 cylinders (erring on the side of the leaner running cylinders). If one or more of those cylinders runs a little leaner than others it means others are running a bit richer (and vice/versa) because of 'average'. Cats combine HC + O to produce H2O and CO2 and combine CO + O to produce CO2. A cylinder running a bit lean will pump a higher than average (average being correct mixture) amount of O into cats, a cylinder running a bit rich will pump a higher than average amount of HC and CO into cats.... So if there's a mixture mismatch between cylinders the cats get more work to do which will make them hotter than if mixture was consistent across 3 cylinders. A gummed petrol or LPG injector can cause such inconsistent mixture.
Steve Thompson has recently passed MOT without any cats fitted (option 5) running on LPG but would have failed emissions running on petrol without any cats fitted. https://forum.elgrandoc.uk/threads/lpg-mot-fail.22417/ There was a bit of drama along the way to passing the emissions test but that was because the tester tested it against the petrol emissions standard and didn't know it was running on LPG. If it wasn't for this slight drama there probably wouldn't have been a 'LPG mot fail' thread, it would be just another than had quietly passed MOT emissions running on LPG with no cats at all fitted like the many others before it and many others after it.
Others have mentioned metal rings in front cats being difficult to remove during front cat decore. When I recently decored front cats on one of my own Elgrands I found no metal ring inside the front cats. I didn't even have to cut front cats open to decore them (when removed from the vehicle I found I could decore them from one end)... but there is still plenty work involved removing front cats from the vehicle before front cat decore can be done, then they've got to be refitted. But the method I used means no parts have to be bought at all, the only costs are time/labour to decore all 4 cats. https://forum.elgrandoc.uk/threads/front-cats-decore.21762/
I have converted around 300 Elgrands to LPG and own 2 myself. I'm converting one at the moment (I've also fitted a towbar on this one I'm LPG converting), I have another coming in to convert on Wednesday, another on Monday, another on Wednesday, etc etc. I tend to leave Fridays available to fix LPG installs that were fitted elsewhere (including on a lot of Elgrands, like the one coming this Friday). When I convert them I make sure the calibration/mixture are correct and make sure they run a little leaner at the top end (under full load enrichment) than they do on petrol. IMO along with cleaner emissions from LPG anyway this should be kinder on cats than running on petrol.
If on the other hand an LPG installer does not set up high load mixture correctly, such as if they leave calibration to some sort of ECU self learning process, the high load mixture is likely to be much richer on LPG than on petrol and this could certainly contribute to cat failure because although exhaust gas temperatures will be cooler (having the rich mixture) the cat will have much more work to do which will see it get much hotter. Or at the other extreme (if the LPG install provides way too lean a mixture under high engine loads) burned engine valves. An LPG installer must manually set high load mixture, 'autocalibration' type features will usually see an engine of this type run too rich on LPG unless a proper job of manual calibration is done but there's also the possibility of too lean a mixture.
Simon
If we're talking what causes the cat issue we should bear in mind that Nissan recalled Elgrands in Japan (where they all obviously run on Japan fuel which some on forum reckon is superior to UK spec fuel).
Nissan blamed the problem on a fuelling issue, which a recall was supposed to address. I do know they go richer than most vehicles at full load (foot to the floor type situations) even when the recall has been done, and I do know that if the recall hasn't been done they continue to inject a little petrol (too lean a mixture to burn) during over-run situations.. (I can see all this in diagnostics readings from either NDS2 or from LPG software while running on petrol) the recall stopped the little petrol during over-run situations. I don't see the fuelling recall making any difference to longevity of cats.
If we're going to blame the cat problem on cats getting hot we should remember that cat temperature is related not only to the temperature of exhaust gasses coming out of the engine, cats produce a lot of heat themselves when they are doing their emissions clean-up work... chemical reactions take place inside the cat (which is the whole point of the cats), the chemical reactions are exo-thermic (produce heat and lots of it). Exhaust gas temperature may be hotter with a lean mixture than with a correct mixture or rich mixture but still cat temp may be a lot hotter with a rich mixture than with a lean mixture, because of the chemical reactions inside the cat that the rich mixture entails.
Just about all major emissions that a cat tries to clean up (HC and CO) are lower on LPG than on petrol, other emissions such as those from burning sulphur etc are negligible on LPG compared to petrol. Lower emissions from the engine means less work for the cats to do (less work as in less chemical reactions which means less heat produced by the cat). This is true provided other things are the same, such as mixture. During normal driving conditions we can presume mixture is correct if the engine warning light isn't on. A good LPG installer will set the high load mixture leaner on LPG than on petrol... On petrol there can be a slight power gain from running an overly rich mixture, on LPG maximum power will come from a mixture that while still slightly rich isn't as rich as the overly rich petrol mixture. The leaner mixture at high engine loads (foot down) will mean less work for the cats to do.
An LPG installer can prevent the engine getting an LPG mixture that is too lean to burn during over-run conditions regardless of whether the fuelling recall was done or not and can make the top end mixture leaner on LPG than on petrol regardless of whether the fuelling recall was done or not.
Another thing that will cause cats to heat up is if there is a difference between mixture on different engine cylinders on the same cylinder bank. The oxygen sensors in the exhaust measure spare (unburned) oxygen content and give a signal that corresponds closely to average mixture for 3 cylinders (erring on the side of the leaner running cylinders). If one or more of those cylinders runs a little leaner than others it means others are running a bit richer (and vice/versa) because of 'average'. Cats combine HC + O to produce H2O and CO2 and combine CO + O to produce CO2. A cylinder running a bit lean will pump a higher than average (average being correct mixture) amount of O into cats, a cylinder running a bit rich will pump a higher than average amount of HC and CO into cats.... So if there's a mixture mismatch between cylinders the cats get more work to do which will make them hotter than if mixture was consistent across 3 cylinders. A gummed petrol or LPG injector can cause such inconsistent mixture.
Steve Thompson has recently passed MOT without any cats fitted (option 5) running on LPG but would have failed emissions running on petrol without any cats fitted. https://forum.elgrandoc.uk/threads/lpg-mot-fail.22417/ There was a bit of drama along the way to passing the emissions test but that was because the tester tested it against the petrol emissions standard and didn't know it was running on LPG. If it wasn't for this slight drama there probably wouldn't have been a 'LPG mot fail' thread, it would be just another than had quietly passed MOT emissions running on LPG with no cats at all fitted like the many others before it and many others after it.
Others have mentioned metal rings in front cats being difficult to remove during front cat decore. When I recently decored front cats on one of my own Elgrands I found no metal ring inside the front cats. I didn't even have to cut front cats open to decore them (when removed from the vehicle I found I could decore them from one end)... but there is still plenty work involved removing front cats from the vehicle before front cat decore can be done, then they've got to be refitted. But the method I used means no parts have to be bought at all, the only costs are time/labour to decore all 4 cats. https://forum.elgrandoc.uk/threads/front-cats-decore.21762/
I have converted around 300 Elgrands to LPG and own 2 myself. I'm converting one at the moment (I've also fitted a towbar on this one I'm LPG converting), I have another coming in to convert on Wednesday, another on Monday, another on Wednesday, etc etc. I tend to leave Fridays available to fix LPG installs that were fitted elsewhere (including on a lot of Elgrands, like the one coming this Friday). When I convert them I make sure the calibration/mixture are correct and make sure they run a little leaner at the top end (under full load enrichment) than they do on petrol. IMO along with cleaner emissions from LPG anyway this should be kinder on cats than running on petrol.
If on the other hand an LPG installer does not set up high load mixture correctly, such as if they leave calibration to some sort of ECU self learning process, the high load mixture is likely to be much richer on LPG than on petrol and this could certainly contribute to cat failure because although exhaust gas temperatures will be cooler (having the rich mixture) the cat will have much more work to do which will see it get much hotter. Or at the other extreme (if the LPG install provides way too lean a mixture under high engine loads) burned engine valves. An LPG installer must manually set high load mixture, 'autocalibration' type features will usually see an engine of this type run too rich on LPG unless a proper job of manual calibration is done but there's also the possibility of too lean a mixture.
Simon
Last edited:
- Messages
- 20
- Reaction score
- 28
- Points
- 133
- Location
- Sydney Australia
- First Name
- Greg
- Elgrand
- E51
- Region
- Rest Of World
So I was just checking out a couple of E51's at a car yard today and had them both idling for about an hour. One was a 2005 and the other a 2007 build. I did a lot of tail pipe snorting. Weird I know. Seemed to take a very long time for the rich mixture smell to abate somewhat. I plugged in the chassis numbers into http://www.Nissan.co.jp/RECALL/search.html and got implemented results on brake rotor and fuel gauge recalls but no mention of overfueling recall. Any ideas why?
- Messages
- 4,164
- Reaction score
- 12,555
- Points
- 383
- Location
- York
- First Name
- Rob
- Elgrand
- E50
- Region
- Yorkshire
Sorry I can't answer that. I'm not sure how far into production the issue continued. Hopefully someone with a series 2 will be able to confirm whether theirs has or hasn't had a recall done for the over fuelling issue
- Messages
- 12,552
- Reaction score
- 36,879
- Points
- 473
- Location
- Normandie
- First Name
- André
- Elgrand
- E51
- Region
- Rest Of World
It will notify you if any relevant recall has not been carried out. If it's not on the list then it didn't apply to your model.
- Messages
- 20
- Reaction score
- 28
- Points
- 133
- Location
- Sydney Australia
- First Name
- Greg
- Elgrand
- E51
- Region
- Rest Of World
Okay thanks, good to know. These were both VQ25DE engines so maybe overfueling is the domain of 3.5L