• Welcome to the ElgrandOC forum.

    You will find that the majority of the forum is locked, but do not worry. You can unlock more content by registering to the forum completely free. Sign up is automatic, does not require email confirmation and is instant. Feel free to browse through the sections to see what topics have been covered before you register.
    You can register for an account by CLICKING HERE

    Once you have registered, you will unlock more of the forum content. You will not unlock all of the content until you have reached 10 posts. This is to give you an opportunity to chat to existing members and help to integrate you into the forum community.
    We are a friendly and helpful community and there is a wealth of infomation contained within the forum. Please feel free to register, introduce yourself and get to know your fellow members.

    Feel free to look at the Frequently Asked Questions section, the Meets/Events section and the Competition Section without having to register.
    We look forward to getting to know you and help you with any questions or problemd you have with your Elgrand.

Jap import

stevie_514

Active Newbie
North East
Messages
36
Reaction score
95
Points
18
Location
Cheshire
First Name
Steve
Elgrand
Looking to buy
Region
North East
Now I have bought an e52 my 2013 . Should I carry on letting it sip premium unleaded or drop down to e10 ( straight away or slowly mix down ).
 
FWIW I think there is a difference between Japanese and UK terms for petrol. This may be an old can of worms.

Japanese Standard/Regular is min 89 octane, Premium min 96 octane and Super Plus usually 100 octane.

UK standard E10 unleaded is 95 octane.

E51 handbook calls for Regular for the 2.5 litre and Premium for the 3.5 litre.

Is super unleaded worth the oncost when E10 is so close to Japanese Premium 96 octane?
 
FWIW I think there is a difference between Japanese and UK terms for petrol. This may be an old can of worms.

Japanese Standard/Regular is min 89 octane, Premium min 96 octane and Super Plus usually 100 octane.

UK standard E10 unleaded is 95 octane.

E51 handbook calls for Regular for the 2.5 litre and Premium for the 3.5 litre.

Is super unleaded worth the oncost when E10 is so close to Japanese Premium 96 octane?
Thnx for that....I will feed it E10 most of the time.
 
E5 to stay alive.
(say this to myself at the pump to remember which to put in :):):) )
 
Last edited:
I agree it's totally personal opinion what someone sticks in.
I put RON99 in all the motors in our family.
I look at it as I don't send thousands and thousands of pounds on cars to then penny pinch at the pump.
However, if a car was financed, with a definite date in the future when it was to be 'handed back', I'd stick whatever in it. Bu still, if I found the premium/super/supreme gave better mpg to offset the price increase in the 'financed car', I'd still use it.
 
I think some people confuse RON numbers and E numbers. One day you may find 99 RON is changed to E10. RON is the rated octane number E is the maximum percentage of bioethanol in the fuel. Over here E85 can have up to 85% bioethanol and is 105 RON. The ethanol to petrol ratio changes between summer and winter.

Like LPG, you will achieve fewer mpg on E85 due to its lower energy density requiring a greater fuel to air ratio, hence you can't use E85 unless the vehicle has been designed or adapted to do so, but there are Elgrands here that have been converted to E85 as it's a fair amount cheaper than E10.

LPG conversion in France is not as popular as E85 due to the very strict regulations on gas powered vehicles, but in the end most will still buy a diesel car.
 
Energy density (calorific value) is unrelated to stochiometric ratio (air:fuel mixture).

Energy density (calorific value) is how much heat we get by burning a set mass (say 1kg) of fuel completely in air. Completely as in no oxygen left in the air after the burning and no partially burned carbon compounds (CO) instead of fully burned CO2.

Stochiometric ratio (correct air:fuel mixture) is how much air we need to fully burn a set mass of that fuel.

If an engine is burning say 1 gram of fuel per second completely (at correct mixture) it will be making more power on a fuel that has higher calorific value than on a fuel that has lower calorific value.. But mass (kg) and volume (litres) are 2 different things, related by actual density (mass density i.e. litres per kg at a certain temperature) not energy density or stochiometric ratio.

Different fuels have different calorific values, different densities and different stochiometric ratios... To compare the rates at which we need to burn different fuels (grams of fuel per second) in terms of volume (milli-litres per second) and/or to compare the peak power an engine could make on a certain fuel, we need to consider all 3 variables....

Raise the calorific value and if we don't change anything else power and mpg increase (and vice/versa). And we probably don't need to modify the fuel injection system or engine at all for these changes.

Lower the stochiometric ratio and if we don't change anything else peak power will increase because the limiting factor of an engine is how much air it can pump through not how much fuel we can pump in... with a lower stochiometric ratio we don't need as much air to burn the same amount of fuel, so if airflow is the limiting factor and we don't need to put as much air in to burn the same amount of fuel, we could put the full amount of air in and burn more fuel to get more power. This still won't necessarily affect mpg but mpg might decrease very slightly because for any type of cruise situation the inlet manifold would be under more vacuum which is a pumping loss (more 'overheads' type work for the engine to do, but like friction in the engine would also be an 'overhead'). Also we're now heating a smaller amount of air in the cylinder with the same total heat energy so we're heating a smaller amount of air to a higher temperature, which is going to have a slightly different affect in the cylinder compared to heating more air with the same total heat. We do need to modify the fuel injection system to allow for the different volume of fuel we need to inject for any given airflow into the engine.

Increase the actual density of the fuel but nothing else and mpg increases but nothing else changes... We just fitted more fuel into a smaller space so each of our litres of fuel contains more mass (each litre is heavier).. and we still get a certain amount of heat for every kg of fuel we burn. Same engine power because we are still restricted by airflow and stochiometric ratio. We do need to modify the fuel injection system to allow for the different volume of fuel we need to inject for any given airflow into the engine.

But in reality when we change from one type of fuel to another we change all 3. And that's a vastly over simplified version of all that's really going on because it doesn't include octane rating effects, transference of heat from the burning fuel to air in the cylinder that hasn't been burned yet, how quickly the fuel burns which can affect the pressure curve in the cylinder, how likely heat is to be picked up by cylinder walls instead of just heating the air to cause pressure in cylinders.

Usually compared to running on E5 petrol you'll go 10% less miles on a litre of LPG and 15 to 27% less miles on a litre of E85.

I believe in France 1 in 7 forecourts sells LPG while 1 in 4 forecourts sells E85. But that doesn't mean more E85 conversions are done than LPG conversions, many vehicles are 'flex fuel' (E85 compatible) by default so they don't need to be converted to run on E85. Those that do convert to LPG do so because it is cheaper than running on E85. I.e. The LPG pumps are used by people who went out of their way to convert their vehicle to LPG because it is cheaper than running on petrol or E85. The E85 pumps are used mostly by people who bought an E85 compatible 'flex fuel' vehicle, no conversion necessary.

The usual level of French beaurocracy means if you have a vehicle converted to LPG outside of France and want to go live in France taking the vehicle with you to register it in France (French number plates etc) you effectively have to have a French guy fit the LPG system.. But at least if you have a vehicle converted to LPG in the UK you can take it on holiday with you to France, still enjoy filling up with cheaper LPG and other benefits such as a lower critique air rating.
 
Last edited:
I think some people confuse RON numbers and E numbers. One day you may find 99 RON is changed to E10. RON is the rated octane number E is the maximum percentage of bioethanol in the fuel.
No, I wasn't confusing RON and E numbers.
All 'super' in the UK is E5 (up to 5% ethanol). Those 'supers' are all RON 97 EXCEPT for Esso's finest, Momentum, V power and, in the handful of places that do it, Texaco's 99. All the other E5s are RON 97 (gulf's super, Texaco in 99% of places; BP ultimate, sainsbury's etc etc.
My Juke Nismo RS for eg has to have RON 98+ (fuel cap and in the manual), so as there isn't any RON98 in the UK, only the 99 is suitable. Used to be a bit annoying before Esso upped theirs to RON99 about 3 years ago, as only Tesco Momentum was in a realistic distance from me.
I put 99 in the other cars inc the Elgrand, basically as i want to lol

I agree that one day RON99 will also prob be 'up to' 10%

Esso's supreme used to have zero ethanol where I am, but that now is on the climate train, and is also 'up to' 5%

(PS I used 'super' as a generic term, meaning the forecourt's E5)
 
Energy density (calorific value) is unrelated to stochiometric ratio (air:fuel mixture).

Energy density (calorific value) is how much heat we get by burning a set mass (say 1kg) of fuel completely in air. Completely as in no oxygen left in the air after the burning and no partially burned carbon compounds (CO) instead of fully burned CO2.

Stochiometric ratio (correct air:fuel mixture) is how much air we need to fully burn a set mass of that fuel.

If an engine is burning say 1 gram of fuel per second completely (at correct mixture) it will be making more power on a fuel that has higher calorific value than on a fuel that has lower calorific value.. But mass (kg) and volume (litres) are 2 different things, related by actual density (mass density i.e. litres per kg at a certain temperature) not energy density or stochiometric ratio.

Different fuels have different calorific values, different densities and different stochiometric ratios... To compare the rates at which we need to burn different fuels (grams of fuel per second) in terms of volume (milli-litres per second) and/or to compare the peak power an engine could make on a certain fuel, we need to consider all 3 variables....

Raise the calorific value and if we don't change anything else power and mpg increase (and vice/versa). And we probably don't need to modify the fuel injection system or engine at all for these changes.

Lower the stochiometric ratio and if we don't change anything else peak power will increase because the limiting factor of an engine is how much air it can pump through not how much fuel we can pump in and with a lower stochiometric ratio we don't need as much air to make the same power. But mpg might decrease very slightly because for any type of cruise situation the inlet manifold would be under more vacuum which is a pumping loss. Also we're now heating a smaller amount of air in the cylinder with the same total heat energy so we're heating a smaller amount of air to a higher temperature, which is going to have a slightly different affect in the cylinder compared to heating more air with the same total heat. We do need to modify the fuel injection system to allow for the different volume of fuel we need to inject for any given airflow into the engine.

Increase the actual density of the fuel but nothing else and mpg increases but nothing else changes... We just fitted more fuel into a smaller space so each of our litres of fuel contains more mass (each litre is heavier).. and we still get a certain amount of heat for every kg of fuel we burn. We do need to modify the fuel injection system to allow for the different volume of fuel we need to inject for any given airflow into the engine.

But in reality when we change from one type of fuel to another we change all 3. And that's a vastly over simplified version of all that's really going on because it doesn't include octane rating effects, transference of heat from the burning fuel to air in the cylinder that hasn't been burned yet, how quickly the fuel burns which can affect the pressure curve in the cylinder, how likely heat is to be picked up by cylinder walls instead of just heating the air to cause pressure in cylinders.

Usually compared to running on E5 petrol you'll go 10% less miles on a litre of LPG and 15 to 27% less miles on a litre of E85.

I believe in France 1 in 7 forecourts sells LPG while 1 in 4 forecourts sells E85. But that doesn't mean more E85 conversions are done than LPG conversions, many vehicles are 'flex fuel' (E85 compatible) by default so they don't need to be converted to run on E85. Those that do convert to LPG do so because it is cheaper than running on E85. I.e. The LPG pumps are used by people who went out of their way to convert their vehicle to LPG because it is cheaper than running on petrol or E85. The E85 pumps are used mostly by people who bought an E85 compatible 'flex fuel' vehicle, no conversion necessary.

The usual level of French beaurocracy means if you have a vehicle converted to LPG outside of France and want to go live in France taking the vehicle with you to register it in France (French number plates etc) you effectively have to have a French guy fit the LPG system.. But at least if you have a vehicle converted to LPG in the UK you can take it on holiday with you to France, still enjoy filling up with cheaper LPG and other benefits such as a lower critique air rating.
Chemistry lessons aside, is it not the case that an engine running on a high percentage of ethanol will require a wider injector pulse than an engine running on a high percentage of petrol, thus more fuel being injected per intake stroke on E85 than E5?
 
Chemistry lessons aside, is it not the case that an engine running on a high percentage of ethanol will require a wider injector pulse than an engine running on a high percentage of petrol, thus more fuel being injected per intake stroke on E85 than E5?
Yes but to understand why we first need to know the 3 factors I mentioned above...

Energy density (calorific value)
PetrolEthanolLPG
45.8MJ/kg19.9MJ/kg50.3MJ/kg

Mass density (litres per kilogram at 15degC)
PetrolEthanolLPG
0.7370.7890.51propane > 0.57butane so 50/50mix 0.54

Now we know the energy density (calorfic value) of 1kg of each fuel and the actual density of each fuel we can work out how much energy is in a litre of each fuel, it's just calorific value x density.
PetrolEthanolLPG
33.75 MJ/L15.70 MJ/L27.16 MJ/L

But there are 2 reasons for the longer pulse on ethanol compared to petrol.

The first reason is that if we want the engine to make the same power, then due to the lower calorific value (per litre) of ethanol compared to petrol we need to inject more ethanol... The engine produces power by using heat energy to expand air in cylinders to create pressure to push on pistons so if we want the same push on pistons from ethanol as from petrol we need to use more ethanol. But the engine ECU meters air coming into the engine so if it were just a case of lower calorific value with same stoch ratio the driver would just put their foot down more to compensate for lower power and the ECU would self compensate for needing more fuel by increasing fuel to match the increased airflow when the driver put their foot down more.

The second reason is because of the difference in stochiometric ratio....

PetrolEthanolLPG
14.79.015.4

From the above table we can see that for any given airflow the engine will need around 63% more mass of ethanol than it would need mass of petrol to keep mixture correct. But again we need to refer to actual density (KG/L) to compensate the 63% for litres instead of kg.

PetrolEthanolLPG
1 (no compensation)(14.7/9) x (0.737/0.789) = 1.526 (+52.6%)(14.7/15.4) x (0.737 / 0.54) = 1.303 (+30.3%)

The above table figures (if I quickly did my sums properly lol...) just show how much the pulse length of an ideal injector (that flows the same volume of any of the fuels) would need to be changed by to swap between fuels to keep mixture the same (lambda equivalence ratio = 1), they don't tell you how much fuel you'd need to burn to get the same power so don't necessarily reflect on mpg.

But we can work out how much longer or shorter the injector would need to pulse for the same engine power. I'll probably come back to this because I have to do some work now lol, but in gist we take the above injector percentage correction factors, go back to looking at our energy per litre table, and calculate how much longer or shorter the injector needs to pulse for to get the same calories of heat energy into the engine.

Idle could be a problem on ethanol even if we fit a system that corrects injector pulse length to correct mixture, because it's not just the mixture or calorific value that change. The engine will need a certain amount of heat energy just to idle but the amount of airflow to get that heat is very different on ethanol to on petrol, so the idle air control system needs to be able to adapt to flow the extra air. There's no extra IAV (idle air valve) on an E51 (there is on an E50 with 3.5 engine), on the E51 idle air is controlled by the fly by wire throttle... But whether or not it will throw any error codes for the unexpected extra air necessary to maintain idle is another matter besides the subject of mixture.
 
Yes but to understand why we first need to know the 3 factors I mentioned above...

Energy density (calorific value)
PetrolEthanolLPG
45.8MJ/kg19.9MJ/kg50.3MJ/kg

Mass density (litres per kilogram at 15degC)
PetrolEthanolLPG
0.7370.7890.51propane > 0.57butane so 50/50mix 0.54

Now we know the energy density (calorfic value) of 1kg of each fuel and the actual density of each fuel we can work out how much energy is in a litre of each fuel, it's just calorific value x density.
PetrolEthanolLPG
33.75 MJ/L15.70 MJ/L27.16 MJ/L

But there are 2 reasons for the longer pulse on ethanol compared to petrol.

The first reason is that if we want the engine to make the same power, then due to the lower calorific value (per litre) of ethanol compared to petrol we need to inject more ethanol... The engine produces power by using heat energy to expand air in cylinders to create pressure to push on pistons so if we want the same push on pistons from ethanol as from petrol we need to use more ethanol. But the engine ECU meters air coming into the engine so if it were just a case of lower calorific value with same stoch ratio the driver would just put their foot down more to compensate for lower power and the ECU would self compensate for needing more fuel by increasing fuel to match the increased airflow when the driver put their foot down more.

The second reason is because of the difference in stochiometric ratio....

PetrolEthanolLPG
14.79.015.4

From the above table we can see that for any given airflow the engine will need around 63% more mass of ethanol than it would need mass of petrol to keep mixture correct. But again we need to refer to actual density (KG/L) to compensate the 63% for litres instead of kg.

PetrolEthanolLPG
1 (no compensation)(14.7/9) x (0.737/0.789) = 1.526 (+52.6%)(14.7/15.4) x (0.737 / 0.54) = 1.303 (+30.3%)

The above table figures (if I quickly did my sums properly lol...) just show how much the pulse length of an ideal injector (that flows the same volume of any of the fuels) would need to be changed by to swap between fuels to keep mixture the same (lambda equivalence ratio = 1), they don't tell you how much fuel you'd need to burn to get the same power so don't necessarily reflect on mpg.

But we can work out how much longer or shorter the injector would need to pulse for the same engine power. I'll probably come back to this because I have to do some work now lol, but in gist we take the above injector percentage correction factors, go back to looking at our energy per litre table, and calculate how much longer or shorter the injector needs to pulse for to get the same calories of heat energy into the engine.

Idle could be a problem on ethanol even if we fit a system that corrects injector pulse length to correct mixture, because it's not just the mixture or calorific value that change. The engine will need a certain amount of heat energy just to idle but the amount of airflow to get that heat is very different on ethanol to on petrol, so the idle air control system needs to be able to adapt to flow the extra air. There's no extra IAV (idle air valve) on an E51 (there is on an E50 with 3.5 engine), on the E51 idle air is controlled by the fly by wire throttle... But whether or not it will throw any error codes for the unexpected extra air necessary to maintain idle is another matter besides the subject of mixture.
as much as i enjoy reading and learning from those experts in this field ....i just want to put fuel in and enjoy
 
as much as i enjoy reading and learning from those experts in this field ....i just want to put fuel in and enjoy
Just ensure it's RON 99 🏎️
 
Just ensure it's RON 99 🏎️
Or RON 110 LPG that also burns more completely and cleaner than any petrol so your oil stays looking new for much longer, doesnt have any nasties like sulphur in it and doesn't wash the oil film off cylinder walls like petrol does :grinning:
 
I have used 50% of 95 octane and 50% of E85 mix. Works great, E85 lifts the total octane rating over 100 and both of them are cheaper that 98 or 99 octane and car works without any modification.
Ethanol has about 27MJ/kg or 21MJ/L energy density, not 19 and 15.
 
I think some people confuse RON numbers and E numbers. One day you may find 99 RON is changed to E10. RON is the rated octane number E is the maximum percentage of bioethanol in the fuel. Over here E85 can have up to 85% bioethanol and is 105 RON. The ethanol to petrol ratio changes between summer and winter.

Like LPG, you will achieve fewer mpg on E85 due to its lower energy density requiring a greater fuel to air ratio, hence you can't use E85 unless the vehicle has been designed or adapted to do so, but there are Elgrands here that have been converted to E85 as it's a fair amount cheaper than E10.

LPG conversion in France is not as popular as E85 due to the very strict regulations on gas powered vehicles, but in the end most will still buy a diesel car.
shocked not many lpg cars in france because the availability of lpg is great compared to u.k. , never struggled for lpg in france
 
shocked not many lpg cars in france because the availability of lpg is great compared to u.k. , never struggled for lpg in france
LPG conversion is costly as you need new gas tanks, injectors and so on compared to E85 conversion where you just put signal conversion box between injector wires
 
Back
Top