1st time no LPG at station 🤦‍♂️

[home.ed.rocks]

Although I'm lucky that my nearest station is the cheapest around, today was first time arriving at station with no LPG.
I've read in the forum's that it's a common problem but for some reason I thought it wouldn't happen to me
I'm going to need a bigger tank than the 50l I have. Next thing on the list after underseal.

On the plus side, I did pick up 3 more hens to increase the flock to 12

 

[MarkT]

Simon/Lpgc will fit a ~90l tank - see previous posts of his. Reading between the lines, he'd prefer you get a time machine and get it done properly the first time. I think it kills him a little to see other LPG peoples' shoddy work...

Other people will fit a ~70l tank. If you're getting 50+ litres in, that's probably what you've got already, as they only fill to about 80%.

You may be able to maximise the space available by removing all the air. That'll help squeeze a bit more fuel in. @Lpgc, is this possible to do by an end user, or something you'd suggest we don't play with?*

Lastly, Simon also adjusts his tanks so they fill to 90%, rather than 80%.

I paid hundreds more to get Simon to do the conversion. Already saved the extra by running out of LPG far less.
A significant saving is also in time - when on holiday I rarely have to divert because the range afforded by Simon's bigger tank and other modifications means I can do 350-400 miles.

Totally worth a trip up to stunning Yorkshire to get a bigger tank fitted.

*edit: I'm curious about how the vacuum is done too.

 

[Gwilo365]

Simon/Lpgc will fit a ~90l tank - see previous posts of his. Reading between the lines, he'd prefer you get a time machine and get it done properly the first time. I think it kills him a little to see other LPG peoples' shoddy work...

Other people will fit a ~70l tank. If you're getting 50+ litres in, that's probably what you've got already, as they only fill to about 80%.

You may be able to maximise the space available by removing all the air. That'll help squeeze a bit more fuel in. @Lpgc, is this possible to do by an end user, or something you'd suggest we don't play with?

Lastly, Simon also adjusts his tanks so they fill to 90%, rather than 80%.

I paid hundreds more to get Simon to do the conversion. Already saved the extra by running out of LPG far less.
A significant saving is also in time - when on holiday I rarely have to divert because the range afforded by Simon's bigger tank and other modifications means I can do 350-400 miles.

Totally worth a trip up to stunning Yorkshire to get a bigger tank fitted.

And on a cold day, you can get 93 litres in if empty.....

 

[MarkT]

And on a cold day, you can get 93 litres in if empty.....

Both my local pumps were serviced recently and work great, so I can't wait for a cold snap to see if I can get more than 93l in

 

[Lpgc]

You may be able to maximise the space available by removing all the air. That'll help squeeze a bit more fuel in. @Lpgc, is this possible to do by an end user, or something you'd suggest we don't play with?*

*edit: I'm curious about how the vacuum is done too.

At this time of year (when the weather is warm) the lack of air in tanks makes less difference than it does in cold conditions.

The problem that @home.ed.rocks is having won't be due to air in the tank, it will simply be due to having a smaller tank fitted because I didn't convert his Elgrand. The removal of air makes a bit (sometimes quite a lot) of difference in winter but less difference in summer.

The thing is this... Tank pressure is closely related to temperature... If I know the temperature of a tank (or rather the temp of the gas in the tank) I can tell you what pressure is going to be in it. That pressure won't change much whether the tank is less than a quarter full or more than 3/4 full, it will change a little depending on how full it is but the pressure is mostly related to it's temperature. To keep the speed of filling similar in winter to speed of filling in summer, forecourt pumps vary the pressure that they pump at. The tank may have only 3 bar pressure on a freezing winter day or may have over 10 bar on a warm summer day. If pumps pumped at (say) 12 bar all the time we'd have a very quick fill in winter and a slow fill in summer, hence pumps vary the pumping pressure depending on temperature. Now, if we start with an empty tank that contains only air and we fill it to 80% of full with liquid LPG the air will compress above the rising level of liquid LPG as we fill it.. If we compress air into 1/5th it's original volume by filling the tank to 80% with liquid we would have 5 bar of air pressure in the tank. Or if we compress air into 1/10th it's original volume by filling the tank to 90% with liquid we would have 10 bar of air pressure in the tank. Now imagine a cold day when tank pressure is only expected to be 4 bar.. So the forecourts pumps pump at 7bar (3 bar over expected tank pressure).. A forecourt pump pumping at 7 bar could never pump gas into a tank if air pressure in the tank is 7 bar. If we removed the air before sealing the tank we could have filled it to 90% of full because tank pressure would still only be 4 bar when the tank was 90% full and it would be the float system that shut off the flow incoming gas not air pressure. Similarly air pressure wouldn't be a factor slowing the speed of fill towards the end of the fill if we'd purged air out of the tank.

No need to run a vacuum on the tank to purge air out. Simply put some liquid gas in it then let the gas out. Liquid gas expands to 270 times it's volume when it turns into a vapour so 1 litre of liquid gas is enough to flush out a 90L tank 3 times. The problem is, though, that the tank has to be removed from the vehicle to flush it out using the liquid gas method because the valve has to be at the top during letting the pressure out, because gas is heavier than air.

 

[home.ed.rocks]

Simon/Lpgc will fit a ~90l tank - see previous posts of his. Reading between the lines, he'd prefer you get a time machine and get it done properly the first time. I think it kills him a little to see other LPG peoples' shoddy work...

Other people will fit a ~70l tank. If you're getting 50+ litres in, that's probably what you've got already, as they only fill to about 80%.

You may be able to maximise the space available by removing all the air. That'll help squeeze a bit more fuel in. @Lpgc, is this possible to do by an end user, or something you'd suggest we don't play with?*

Lastly, Simon also adjusts his tanks so they fill to 90%, rather than 80%.

I paid hundreds more to get Simon to do the conversion. Already saved the extra by running out of LPG far less.
A significant saving is also in time - when on holiday I rarely have to divert because the range afforded by Simon's bigger tank and other modifications means I can do 350-400 miles.

Totally worth a trip up to stunning Yorkshire to get a bigger tank fitted.

*edit: I'm curious about how the vacuum is done too.

Yes it's on the wishlist for sure!
I've only recently brought my Elgrand which came with the conversion already and I'm sure @Lpgc wouldn't be impressed!
It works but the goal would be to upgrade the tank initially an make use of existing setup.

 

[home.ed.rocks]

I don't think there would be any point in going from 50 - 70l, only to the 90l with 90% fill makes sense.
@Lpgc have you ever not been able to use your 90l tank with someone else's setup?
I saw a thread can't remember if it was old but price was 750. Is that still a current price (full system 2095?)
Need to know what I'm aiming for
Thanks

 

[Lpgc]

I don't think there would be any point in going from 50 - 70l, only to the 90l with 90% fill makes sense.
@Lpgc have you ever not been able to use your 90l tank with someone else's setup?
I saw a thread can't remember if it was old but price was 750. Is that still a current price (full system 2095?)
Need to know what I'm aiming for
Thanks

Sorry a bit late with this reply, I've been on holiday and spent most of yesterday driving home, didn't have time to check the forum yesterday.

I'd always expect to be able to fit my 93L tank on an E51.

Ballpark £750 for removing a smaller tank to fit 'my' tank, depending on a few things such as the types and lengths of piping the original install had, whether it's a 'standard' (as in not camper converted) E51 or a camper converted E51, how the original installer had mounted the original tank.

£2095 to convert a 'standard' (again as in not camper converted) E51 or £2295 to convert a camper converted E51. There is more work involved fitting tanks on camper converted E51's because the proper way to secure underslung/external LPG tanks on E51's is to bolt them through the metal floor (and it's not as easy to access the metal floor when they've been camper converted).

Simon

 

[home.ed.rocks]

Thanks for the update, mines a standard E51.
The examiner was not overly impressed, made a note which I'm not sure if it was summary of whole system install or to do with mounting but it passed .
Well the tank upgrade is definitely on my to do list
When you fit a full system, I presume you can refit to another one if ever the Elgrand went to Elgrand heaven?

 

[Lpgc]

Thanks for the update, mines a standard E51.
The examiner was not overly impressed, made a note which I'm not sure if it was summary of whole system install or to do with mounting but it passed .
Well the tank upgrade is definitely on my to do list
When you fit a full system, I presume you can refit to another one if ever the Elgrand went to Elgrand heaven?

What examiner?

Yes a tank or even a full LPG system can be transplanted. The thing is that it's not usually worth transplanting a system because of the work of removal and the value it adds to a vehicle when the vehicle is resold. Different if we're talking about a vehicle 'going to heaven' though.

 

[home.ed.rocks]

System was fitted in Poland, I assume had to then be "examined" in UK to be registered as LPG

I have the examination certificate!

**I know very little and make lots of assumptions**

 

[Lpgc]

System was fitted in Poland, I assume had to then be "examined" in UK to be registered as LPG

I have the examination certificate!

**I know very little and make lots of assumptions**

There is no official examination scheme. You have in a way been duped by a trade body or one of it's members. All you need to register a vehicle as converted to LPG in the UK is the receipt from the installer whom is presumably a competent person at converting vehicles to LPG. The chances are that if I examined a vehicle converted by this 'examiner' I could criticise the hell out of their choice of components, they way they fitted those components, they way they set those components up and the way in which they calibrated the system. The word of the examiner is worth hardly anything, except to the trade body itself. It is only one man and his secretary who run the vehicle LPG conversion department at said trade body, he told me to my face that the only reason he convinced the trade body to let him set up this vehicle LPG conversion department at the trade body that is really only concerned at looking after the interests of the likes of Calor and Flogas, nothing to do with vehicles, was so that he could have a few easy years before his retirement. He couldn't do a good job of converting a vehicle to LPG for toffee. The DVSA ask my advice when it comes to all things LPG vehicle related, not his. If you want a real assessment and advice about your install, come to me. I could have written you a note good for registering your vehicle as LPG converted with DVSA and I know a lot more about vehicle LPG conversions than your 'examiner' does.

 

[home.ed.rocks]

Thanks for taking the time to respond
I only recently (few weeks) brought my Elgrand and it came with the conversion. I didn't know anything about LPG until then, but I love it now.
At least I now know and communicate with the No1 authority on LPG @Lpgc