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E51 E51 Aircon Pipe Corrosion (Rear)

When you open the flap be careful as the hinges are delicate, give it a good soak in WD40 and tease it open. When you're in give it a good squirt with ACF50 or similar corrosion inhibitor, stick the nozzle down the foam pipe insulation to expel any moisture and leave a protective film on the pipe.
 
When you open the flap be careful as the hinges are delicate, give it a good soak in WD40 and tease it open. When you're in give it a good squirt with ACF50 or similar corrosion inhibitor, stick the nozzle down the foam pipe insulation to expel any moisture and leave a protective film on the pipe.
Access flap opened fine thankfully. Guessing I need to check above the axle for holes, really hoping I can sort this tomorrow so I can just get them to regas instead of blank off. 21mm ID Alloy pipe might be difficult to find at short notice though.
 
Am I flogging a dead horse here looking for a leak? Does "just the front" working actually cool the car down enough? I'll hazard a guess at me mostly using it during winter months anyway for drying the air inside (being in a wet climate) so will just the front be sufficient for that?
I promise the questions will subside once I've ironed out the niggles 🤣
 
The insulation around the '21mm pipe' is standard. The pipe isn't 21mm ID it is a special design with one pipe running inside the outer pipe and 3 ribs supporting the inner pipe from the outer pipe, there's not much chance of cutting a rotten section out to weld a section in. If there's just been a small pinprick hole some people have bodged the outside of the pipe by using sealants, wrapping stuff around it soaked in epoxy and clamping in place with jubilee clips, etc. But usually if it's worn thin enough in certain places to have pin prick holes it'll be very thin on a longer length of the pipe than just where the pin prick holes are.

Usually if there's a leak it's under that insulation foam, you can slide the insulation up the pipe a bit to see if it's damp with AC pag oil. The undersealing on yours might make it more difficult to find a leak.

What seems to happen is the AC pipe is degraded by electrolytic effect - The AC pipe is aluminium, the vehicle body is steel, they are bolted together so are in good electrical contact with each other. Add an electrolyte such as water to the foam around the aluminium pipe and it effectively makes an electric cell with the aluminium pipe the anode and the vehicle body the cathode, the anode (AC pipe) is eroded whenever this electric cell is active which is whenever the foam is wet, especially if the foam contacts the hinged metal AC access door.

To minimise future corrosion you could do some of the following: Prevent electrolyte (water) coming into contact with the metal components, can't really prevent water getting on the pipe but you can paint the pipe if you roll back the foam insulation, with waterproof paint the paint might get wet but the pipe stay dry. If the foam is wet the point of most electrolysis effect will be where there's smallest gap between aluminium pipe and steel components, this is often where the pipe enters the flap because the flap presses against it at that point, I remove the flap and don't refit it on my own Elgrands to prevent this pinch point of most electrolysis effect. Electrically isolating the aluminium AC pipe from the steel body to break the electrical connection and prevent the cell / electrolysis effect isn't viable because the AC pipe is connected to the compressor which is bolted to the engine, plus the AC pipe is supported at various points by clips to the steel body.

I've found AC leaks before by pressurising the system with CO2 or even air from a compressor, then going around listening for hissing and pag oil leaks. Not really supposed to use stuff like air though because it contains water from atmospheric humidity and you don't want water in the AC system. But if you later get it properly regassed the vacuum test done before regassing should cause most water that gets in the system to boil off and be sucked out by the machine. If there's a leak though the fix won't involve cutting a section out and welding in a length of pipe in it's place.
 
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The insulation around the '21mm pipe' is standard. The pipe isn't 21mm ID it is a special design with one pipe running inside the outer pipe and 3 ribs supporting the inner pipe from the outer pipe, there's not much chance of cutting a rotten section out to weld a section in. If there's just been a small pinprick hole some people have bodged the outside of the pipe by using sealants, wrapping stuff around it soaked in epoxy and clamping in place with jubilee clips, etc. But usually if it's worn thin enough in certain places to have pin prick holes it'll be very thin on a longer length of the pipe than just where the pin prick holes are.

Usually if there's a leak it's under that insulation foam, you can slide the insulation up the pipe a bit to see if it's damp with AC pag oil. The undersealing on yours might make it more difficult to find a leak.

What seems to happen is the AC pipe is degraded by electrolytic effect - The AC pipe is aluminium, the vehicle body is steel, they are bolted together so are in good electrical contact with each other. Add an electrolyte such as water to the foam around the aluminium pipe and it effectively makes an electric cell with the aluminium pipe the anode and the vehicle body the cathode, the anode (AC pipe) is eroded whenever this electric cell is active which is whenever the foam is wet, especially if the foam contacts the hinged metal AC access door.

To minimise future corrosion you could do some of the following: Prevent electrolyte (water) coming into contact with the metal components, can't really prevent water getting on the pipe but you can paint the pipe if you roll back the foam insulation, with waterproof paint the paint might get wet but the pipe stay dry. If the foam is wet the point of most electrolysis effect will be where there's smallest gap between aluminium pipe and steel components, this is often where the pipe enters the flap because the flap presses against it at that point, I remove the flap and don't refit it on my own Elgrands to prevent this pinch point of most electrolysis effect. Electrically isolating the aluminium AC pipe from the steel body to break the electrical connection and prevent the cell / electrolysis effect isn't viable because the AC pipe is connected to the compressor which is bolted to the engine, plus the AC pipe is supported at various points by clips to the steel body.

I've found AC leaks before by pressurising the system with CO2 or even air from a compressor, then going around listening for hissing and pag oil leaks. Not really supposed to use stuff like air though because it contains water from atmospheric humidity and you don't want water in the AC system. But if you later get it properly regassed the vacuum test done before regassing should cause most water that gets in the system to boil off and be sucked out by the machine. If there's a leak though the fix won't involve cutting a section out and welding in a length of pipe in it's place.
Yes indeed, I appreciate your detailed answer. I was aware of most of your points but you do highlight them better than I ever could. I suppose I'm back to my latest question of weather or not the single air con in the front is adequate for the whole vehicle? and/or weather or not I can potentially find the leak/s and rectify them at a later date when I have more time to investigate? I've had to take a day off work to go back to Vine Place on Wednesday to drop it off with them for the blank off and regas (amongst other things)

Thanks again for taking the time to comment back, I really appreciate people taking time out of their day to respond to what probably seems like daft questions to the better versed members.
 
You said you've picked it up last week, if you've just bought this van from Vine Place like this, even with their reputation, I wouldn't accept having the rear aircon blanked, it's not good enough on a new sale even if considered a common fault.

There's little hope of reinstating it at a later date, and it will always affect future value. It's not your problem its failed, it's theirs, and there are plenty of vans out there that are functioning perfectly.

I don't mean to be a downer, but you have every right for it to function properly at point of sale if it's new to you. Tbh even in the couple of shots you've posted, it looks crusty in places and a heavy coat of black waxoil does a good job of hiding more of that.

Just saying it how I see it if it was my van I'd just paid for and I simply wouldn't accept it like this.
 
You said you've picked it up last week, if you've just bought this van from Vine Place like this, even with their reputation, I wouldn't accept having the rear aircon blanked, it's not good enough on a new sale even if considered a common fault.

There's little hope of reinstating it at a later date, and it will always affect future value. It's not your problem its failed, it's theirs, and there are plenty of vans out there that are functioning perfectly.

I don't mean to be a downer, but you have every right for it to function properly at point of sale if it's new to you. Tbh even in the couple of shots you've posted, it looks crusty in places and a heavy coat of black waxoil does a good job of hiding more of that.

Just saying it how I see it if it was my van I'd just paid for and I simply wouldn't accept it like this.
Appreciate your insight, and I totally understand where you are coming from too.

They refilled and tested and all was fine but when I collected 10 day's later and I checked it had obviously all vacated the system. They were going to blank it there and then but the blanks weren't in stock when Matt traveled in from home on his day off to rectify. This vehicle is also a trade in and not imported by themselves. The underseal was done there during the PDI before I collected and I have a few niggles/issues for them to rectify when dropping off with them for a few days on Wed (courtesy car being supplied) I'm giving them the chance to rectify the points I raised in an email highlighting issues I have, but they already stated they wouldn't fix rear air conditioning and would blank off if it was found to be faulty before I paid. Is just the front working sufficient?
 
Appreciate your insight, and I totally understand where you are coming from too.

They refilled and tested and all was fine but when I collected 10 day's later and I checked it had obviously all vacated the system. They were going to blank it there and then but the blanks weren't in stock when Matt traveled in from home on his day off to rectify. This vehicle is also a trade in and not imported by themselves. The underseal was done there during the PDI before I collected and I have a few niggles/issues for them to rectify when dropping off with them for a few days on Wed (courtesy car being supplied) I'm giving them the chance to rectify the points I raised in an email highlighting issues I have, but they already stated they wouldn't fix rear air conditioning and would blank off if it was found to be faulty before I paid. Is just the front working sufficient?
Nobody in stowage is entitled to air-con.
 
In really hot weather if only the front is used it has to work hard because there is the rear 2/3 of the car collecting sun. It doesn’t mean front passengers are not comfy but it is much nicer with the rear on as well, the fans slow down and the whole car is at the same temp.
 
To replace the front to rear AC pipe like for like involves lowering the back axle to fit it. The standard front to rear AC pipe is one or two pieces connected to together (I forget if one or two pieces), it is impossible to route the part that goes over the back axle without lowering the back axle. I've lowered the back axle on 2 Elgrands to fit standard front to rear AC pipes.

There were 2 or 3 part front to rear AC pipes made, these can be fitted without lowering the back axle but they are far less common. I have one here and recently tried to fit it on another Elgrand but it turned out the end fittings where they connect at the front end (where a blanking plate might go instead) were damaged. Ideally you could do with one of these later/aftermarket 2/3 part front to rear AC pipes from a dismantler, fit it and have AC working front and rear... But they sell at a premium over standard front to rear pipes because dismantlers know they prevent the need for lowering the rear axle to fit them (but you still really need to disconnect the nearside rear cat during fitting).
 
Appreciate your insight, and I totally understand where you are coming from too.

They refilled and tested and all was fine but when I collected 10 day's later and I checked it had obviously all vacated the system. They were going to blank it there and then but the blanks weren't in stock when Matt traveled in from home on his day off to rectify. This vehicle is also a trade in and not imported by themselves. The underseal was done there during the PDI before I collected and I have a few niggles/issues for them to rectify when dropping off with them for a few days on Wed (courtesy car being supplied) I'm giving them the chance to rectify the points I raised in an email highlighting issues I have, but they already stated they wouldn't fix rear air conditioning and would blank off if it was found to be faulty before I paid. Is just the front working sufficient?
Hmm bit annoying though fella, it's not a good introduction and I'm glad they're looking at your niggles seriously. I hope it all comes together for you, and yeah the cold up front makes it liveable.

Best of luck my friend 🤝
 
I've got ZERO AC at the moment so anything will be a blessing 🤣
 
Well, I walk out to the van today and see a green spot on the floor, sure enough I'm now in the same boat as you guys and only yesterday I was turning the aircon up as it was to cold and laughing about it.i don't fucking belleve it

I'm not sure I can physically do anything right now, I'm totally fucked and in a shit load of pain, that's my day to day life, pain on pain on pain until I can't stand up anymore, then I keep going anyway as I've no choice, it's just me and the kids.

I don't have the energy to chase this down where I live, but on top of crushed ankles I have sarcoidosis that really makes me feel like shit if I'm hot. I got that from catching swine flu bitd, I'm that lucky, which fucked me right up, hallucinations and fevers, now my immune system eats itself and my nerves and some organs slowly.

I only wanted something I could eventually go away in and have a bit of life on my own, I've given everything to those around me until I've nothing left and I'm so tired, had enough of fighting.Sorry fellas.
 
Ah that's a shitter about the Elgrand 🤦🏻‍♂️ My wife suffers from chronic pain too, it's debilitating - not nice to watch so I can't imagine what it's like to go through
 
Aircon question - should the air be really cold? the lowest setting on mine is 18 degrees, front and rear, it does blow cold but not freezing cold as older aircon systems I have had. It does cool the bus down but the cold air is about 18 degrees coming out of the vent, is this normal or does it need re-gassing?
 
Aircon question - should the air be really cold? the lowest setting on mine is 18 degrees, front and rear, it does blow cold but not freezing cold as older aircon systems I have had. It does cool the bus down but the cold air is about 18 degrees coming out of the vent, is this normal or does it need re-gassing?
Should be around the 5-8°c area coming out if memory serves me correctly
 
So it looks like a re-gas at minimum, thanks I wasn't sure if the climate control was different to old on/off aircon.
 
So it looks like a re-gas at minimum, thanks I wasn't sure if the climate control was different to old on/off aircon.
Climate control aims to keep the cabin temp to the desired temperature, I'd imagine that unless your car was already cool it would be pretty chilly coming out if it was set to coldest
 
I'm waiting for the products to attempt my fix for this I posted the other day. I don't want to risk using breaker parts that might fail in 6 mths time which would crush my battered soul.

If my fix fails, I'm currently talking to a UK company who are certain they can manufacture a front to rear aircon line for an E51 at a much more reasonable price than shipping from Japan.

@Lpgc said Nissan used a revised sectioned line on some later models which only requires the rear cat to be moved (I think) and I'm waiting to hear back on them being able to replicate that if I ask them to.

Let's hope we find a way to permanently keep these beguiling old girls cool in the summer sun.
 
I'm waiting for the products to attempt my fix for this I posted the other day. I don't want to risk using breaker parts that might fail in 6 mths time which would crush my battered soul.

If my fix fails, I'm currently talking to a UK company who are certain they can manufacture a front to rear aircon line for an E51 at a much more reasonable price than shipping from Japan.

@Lpgc said Nissan used a revised sectioned line on some later models which only requires the rear cat to be moved (I think) and I'm waiting to hear back on them being able to replicate that if I ask them to.

Let's hope we find a way to permanently keep these beguiling old girls cool in the summer sun.

I'm not sure if the 2/3 section front to rear aircon pipe (that allows fitting without lowering the rear axle) was fitted from new by the factory to any Elgrand or if they were all replacement parts.

Would be interesting to know what the other firm can do and how much they'd charge.

I think if you could find a replacement from a breaker in good condition and protected it by painting etc to prevent corrosion it would unlikely go wrong again. But that still leaves having to lower the back axle to fit it unless you can find a 2/3 section one at a breakers. It isn't really too bad a job to lower the back axle to fit the standard AC pipe, I did it on one of mine. I've lowered the back axle to change rear springs as it can be easier than other methods of changing rear springs.
 
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