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How do the Japanese solve the cat issues on their Elgrands?

Elgrandpa

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Just wondering how they solve the 'cat issue' in Japan as the recall fix doesn't seem to cure the problem for good. I believe they need the 4 cats to pass their regulations out there so can't remove the rear cats as a lot of us do over here.
 

Reverend RobP

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Sure I read somewhere that they don't keep their cars very long in Japan. Less than 10 years or something I think. If that's the case there's prob only a handful or so that die before that age
 

Tim C

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They are 'persuaded' to get rid of them and buy newer Japanese cars with increasingly more expensive tax and testing, it keeps the car industry in business. They generally then get exported. They don't get old enough to cause a problem generally.

I recently read that the UK is the only major car producing nation (in comparison to USA, Germany, France, Italy, Spain and Japan) that doesn't have a nationally produced car as its best selling car. I suppose we don't help that but interesting all the same.
 

Sid

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They sell them to mugs in the UK before they blow..... only joking. Apparently the petrol there is of a higher standard and less likely to cause cat problems. Hence only use high octane in UK for 3.5, manual says normal petrol for 2.5.

There was a recall where the mixture/burn temperature was adjusted, check you car here, http://www.Nissan.co.jp/RECALL/search.html (thanks to
Stempyuno for that link.) see all https://forum.elgrandoc.uk/threads/a-novices-guide-to-Elgrand-acquisition.10874/

But, it is said on this forum that even if recall was done in Japan then you still need to de-cat and especially if you are running hotter on LPG.

Recall information is a very good indicator of how caring and bothered the previous Japanese owners were about their car. If they have missed a few recalls perhaps they missed a few other maintenance issues. Great link for researching b4 purchase.
 

Karl

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As others have said... they tend to get rid of cars over 10 years old, which is why they are "cheap" to us as they basically become uneconomical to run for them, and very hard to keep roadworth… so yeah, we get the problems when we buy them.
 

Lpgc

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They are aware of the cat problem in Japan, including Nissan hence the recalls.

Seems some owners in Japan go to the same preventative measures that we do or we wouldn't see newly imported Elgrands that had been decatted.

In Japan a car with a blown engine is unlikely to get another engine, more likely just scrapped, so we wouldn't see an imported Elgrand that has suffered damage in Japan due to the cat problem. Think how much they're worth in Japan, and how much it would cost to fit another engine when they could instead just buy another complete running Elgrand.

None of the above is relevant to LPG conversion - in Japan they don't run vehicles on LPG, never known of an imported Elgrand that had LPG fitted while it was still in Japan.
 

Andy700

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None of the above is relevant to LPG conversion - in Japan they don't run vehicles on LPG, never known of an imported Elgrand that had LPG fitted while it was still in Japan.
Apparently they do, but mostly commercials and taxis.
 

stevemen

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Nissan remove the front cats and do some remapping.
Something Nissan (or any manufacturer)would ever admit to.
So how do we know it's Nissan that are doing it?
Every E51 we have had straight from Japan with front cats removed ( yes there's been quite a few as we always check if front cats have been removed) has been done EXACTLY the same. Same size and position of cuts/welds, which tells you the mechanic is working from a job sheet, which can only be from Nissan.
Individual garages doing it off there own back may have similar methods but would varying to some degree or another.
So before you go you go decatting the backs, check the fronts may already of been done.
Steve
Tojomotorsuk
 

Sid

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That is amazing information Steve. Totally throws a spanner into the must have rear cats decored debate. So how easy is it to check the front. Do we need to train a ferret up to carry a camera down the zorst pipes? Thanks for sharing.
 

stevemen

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The vast majority of the time you need rear cats (or front if you want to be 100% certain ) removing.
Yep you can borrow my ferret if you want but it bites!

digital thermometer or endoscope camera might be easier if your not used to handling ferrets.
Steve
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Stempyuno

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This is intriguing. I know mine has had a recall done in Japan for the front cat / over fuelling issue so now I am wondering that as the rear cats had been removed in Japan, whether Nissan had done it and have done the front too. It would be good news if they have as it sailed through the emissions test at MOT.

Might have to put my endoscope into action soon.
 

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The official version of the recall is inspect/replace cats if needs be. What they actually did or didn't do only the ferret will know.
Steve
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stevemen

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This is intriguing. I know mine has had a recall done in Japan for the front cat / over fuelling issue so now I am wondering that as the rear cats had been removed in Japan, whether Nissan had done it and have done the front too. It would be good news if they have as it sailed through the emissions test at MOT.

Might have to put my endoscope into action soon.
Never known Nissan remove rear cats. Like would of been done by your agent in Japan maybe.
Steve
Tojomotorsuk
 

stevemen

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Don't think Nissan would ever remove rear cats, far to easy to get found out. Removing front ones is a fairly safe bet for them , no one is ever likely to know and of course the correct way to do it .
Steve
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Stempyuno

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Never known Nissan remove rear cats. Like would of been done by your agent in Japan maybe.
Steve
Tojomotorsuk
Or possibly by the Japanese owner as it has been to some obscure Japanese tuning shop who have left their mark on the ECU. It was one of the neatest welding jobs I have ever seen though.
 

Sid

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[TD]Recall notification number​

[TD]3225​

[TD]Recall start date[/TD]
[TD]September 13, 2013[/TD]​
[/TD]
Status of the structure, equipment or performance that is deemed to be in a non-conforming state and its causeThe engine control computer program is inadequate, so the amount of intake air in the engine may be insufficient when decelerating due to accelerator-off from high engine speed, and fuel is discharged without burning in the engine. Combustion with the catalyst may cause the inside of the catalyst to become hot and damage the catalyst. For this reason, abnormal noise is generated due to broken catalyst fragments, and if the rear catalyst becomes clogged, acceleration will be poor. In the worst case, engine stall may occur.
Details of improvementThe engine control program is revised to the countermeasure specifications, and the damaged state of the catalyst is checked. If any abnormality is found, the catalyst (4 pieces) is replaced with a new one.
[/TD]
 

Lpgc

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With reference to @Sid 's post above...

I have noticed that under certain conditions all Elgrands will continue to pulse petrol injectors for a very short duration (say 0.2ms). Correct fuelling for a warmed VQ engine under no load at idle is for petrol injectors to pulse at around 2.3ms and manifold pressure will be at about 0.3bar. During over-run manifold pressure might go as low as about 0.15 bar, so for correct mixture at 0.15bar would expect petrol injectors to pulse for around 1.2ms. Wouldn't expect the mixture in cylinders to even ignite if manifold pressure is 0.15 bar and petrol injection is only 0.2ms because it will be too lean to burn. If air/fuel mixture doesn't burn it will just be pumped into the exhaust system where it can cause cats to run hotter. It is likely that the recall in Sid's post points to the difference I see between even same model same year Elgrands... some may have had the recall done, some not had the recall done.

Regardless of whether or not this recall was done it won't have an effect when running on LPG with one of my conversions because I set the LPG system to filter such very short pulse injections... so like just about every other vehicle the engine won't get a mixture that is ridiculously lean during over-run when it is better off not getting any fuel at all under those conditions.

But I doubt that the explained (by Nissan) reason for this recall is completely candid, I doubt that the extremely lean mixture under over-run conditions would cause the cat problem. If this is the only recall regards the cat problem it would seem to me Nissan has whitewashed the issue - made changes to ECU programming that would have hardly ever have a positive real world effect on improving the cat issue. But at least during the recall it seems they checked the existing exhaust system. Only thing is it seems that if they found a problem with the existing exhaust system they would replace the exhaust system with a new exhaust that is exactly the same design as the old one when everything points to the exhaust design being the problem...
Far cheaper not to redesign and build a different exhaust system, just fit a new old spec exhaust and fob people off with 'it was the ECU that was the problem but we've changed the ECU software' and maybe also 'it did seem your old ECU software damaged your exhaust so we've fitted you a new exhaust'.

End result being Nissan has checked for developing problems in exhausts, changed exhausts (with one with same potential problem as the one they removed) if they thought necessary, made customers happy by believing the exhaust issue has been properly addressed, covered their own backs because the new old spec exhaust should be expected to last the remaining years the Elgrand is expected to be on the road in Japan. Probably far cheaper and easier for Nissan to take this approach... even if it meant having to replace the odd engine if found to be necessary, than to redesign the exhaust and replace the exhaust on every E51. I expect if a potential risk/cost/customer satisfaction assessment was done this approach would have made most sense to Nissan. It is a fob off to customers who intend on keeping their vehicle a long time and/or do a lot of miles... but customers in Japan don't keep vehicles a long time etc.

It would be interesting to know how many exhausts Nissan changed during recalls, when first problems were reported, how old the vehicles were and how many miles they had done. I wonder how many problems were reported in Japan before they started doing the recall for the issue. One thing's for sure, early E51's go back to 2001, seems the recall was done in 2013, that's potentially recalling 12 year old vehicles, it's unlikely the vehicles will live to be 24 years old in Japan... even fobbing people off they're unlikely to see a further complaint from the same customer.
 
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