What petrol should I put in my Elgrand?

[Gwilo365]

Though with the legislation here, we're already running an ethanol blend at e5 and E10 is next. Will we realistically have any other option? Or just start saving for rebuilds of our beloved engines?

 

[scaramanga]

What are the problems that E10 will cause?

 

[LeStempy]

The ethanol is hygroscopic. The water and alcohol is an environment where certain bacteria thrive and excrete acid which dissolves your engine.

 

[Gwilo365]

The ethanol is hygroscopic. The water and alcohol is an environment where certain bacteria thrive and excrete acid which dissolves your engine.

Seals and anything rubber i would imagine being the first victims.
Any ideas on protective measures? I thinking @Lpgc might have ideas....beyond running log ( I wish I had the funds right now to do this, but gonna take a while)

 

[Lpgc]

I sent an email to Nissan Japan and they stated that ethanol fuel blend cannot be used for the Japanese specification vehicles which use premium gasoline I certainly will not be using it E10.
I have used both 95 and 99 and found no difference at all I now only use 95 it runs perfectly for the last 2 and half years.

Thank you again for your email dated April 18, 2019, concerning your Nissan Elgrand.

With regard to your inquiry, we would like to inform you that Ethanol Fuel Blend cannot used for the Japanese specification vehicles which use premium gasoline.

We hope the information will meet your needs.


Sincerely yours,


Chikako TAGUCHI
Customer Communication Center
Nissan MOTOR Co., LTD.

E5 doesn't seem to be causing any problems, I'd doubt E10 would. I wonder if Nissan thought you were asking about fuel with higher ethanol content such as E40 / E85 (85% ethanol)?

Engines see all sorts of acids which build up in oil.

Too much ethanol could damage any rubber seals in the fuel system etc. Beyond a certain percentage of ethanol content the engine management system wouldn't be able to adapt properly to the ethanol content so even regardless of seals failing etc the engine would have trouble running properly anyway... but still I doubt the engine itself would suffer hard part damage beyond minor parts such as seals. There won't be many changes to an engine itself to run even E85, changes mostly involve removing replacing rubber seals in the fuel system and breather pipes and making changes to the engine management system to allow it to cope with the different stochiometric ratios of ethanol versus petrol and different ignition timing.

Here's an example: Before ethanol was added to petrol late 1990's and early 2000's BMW V8s were fitted with rubber breather pipes at the rear end of cam covers, these breather always seemed in good condition. As soon as ethanol was used in petrol it started to turn these breather pipes into mush. Later spec / replacement BMW breather pipes seem ethanol proof, at least good enough for E5 and I would expect E10. I wouldn't know if they're OK for E85, the engine management system certainly wouldn't be able to run E85 because the engine isn't designated a flexfuel design... But I'm pretty sure that the metal bits in the engine won't be hurt by E85.

A simple way to avoid running on ethanol is to convert to LPG

 

[Andyzz]

E5 doesn't seem to be causing any problems, I'd doubt E10 would. I wonder if Nissan thought you were asking about fuel with higher ethanol content such as E40 / E85 (85% ethanol)?

Engines see all sorts of acids which build up in oil.

Too much ethanol could damage any rubber seals in the fuel system etc. Beyond a certain percentage of ethanol content the engine management system wouldn't be able to adapt properly to the ethanol content so even regardless of seals failing etc the engine would have trouble running properly anyway... but still I doubt the engine itself would suffer hard part damage beyond minor parts such as seals. There won't be many changes to an engine itself to run even E85, changes mostly involve removing replacing rubber seals in the fuel system and breather pipes and making changes to the engine management system to allow it to cope with the different stochiometric ratios of ethanol versus petrol and different ignition timing.

Here's an example: Before ethanol was added to petrol late 1990's and early 2000's BMW V8s were fitted with rubber breather pipes at the rear end of cam covers, these breather always seemed in good condition. As soon as ethanol was used in petrol it started to turn these breather pipes into mush. Later spec / replacement BMW breather pipes seem ethanol proof, at least good enough for E5 and I would expect E10. I wouldn't know if they're OK for E85, the engine management system certainly wouldn't be able to run E85 because the engine isn't designated a flexfuel design... But I'm pretty sure that the metal bits in the engine won't be hurt by E85.

A simple way to avoid running on ethanol is to convert to LPG

That's what I actually asked them.
The other problem with E10 is it attracts water Elgrand has a steel petrol tank as far as I know which could cause rust in the tank.
When I done my research government is going to introduce E10 but they will not be withdrawing E5 because there's too many vehicles which cannot run on E10 that's why it has not been introduced yet.

Dear Chikako TAGUCHI.
Thank you so much for your fast reply and yes the information is very
helpful to me thank you.
I forgot to ask you is it safe to use Ethanol Fuel Blend such as E10 or E85
with the Nissen Elgrand E51 2004.
Thank you for your help in this matter.


Thank you again for your email dated April 18, 2019, concerning your Nissan Elgrand.

With regard to your inquiry, we would like to inform you that Ethanol Fuel Blend cannot used for the Japanese specification vehicles which use premium gasoline.

We hope the information will meet your needs.


Sincerely yours,


Chikako TAGUCHI
Customer Communication Center
Nissan MOTOR Co., LTD.

 

[Lpgc]

One of the biggest reasons we probably couldn't run Elgrands on (say) E85 (85% ethanol 15% petrol) or E100 (100% ethanol) is the electronics.

The stochiometric ratio of petrol is 14.7:1 (by weight we need 14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel), the stoch for ethanol is 9:1. Electronics can tell if the air/fuel mixture is rich or lean during driving (lambda probes in the exhaust give varying voltage depending on the amount of oxygen in exhaust gasses) and adapt to keep mixture correct by adjusting 'fuel trim' values. Electronics don't directly measure fuel flow but do directly measure air flow, the methodology is that for a given airflow the electronics pulse petrol injectors to provide correct mixture for measured airflow, if this turns out to be a bit rich the electronics reduce fuelling a bit and vice/versa. If mixture needs to be too different from 14.7:1 (like 9:1) the electronics won't be able to adapt to increase fuelling enough before fuel trims are 'maxed out' positive. Different fuels have different weights per litre (density) - but ethanol density is very similar to petrol density so this can almost be discounted from calculations about injector flow rates etc. Energy density - by weight and by volume a litre of petrol contains more potential heat energy (by burning in air) than a litre of ethanol, petrol has a higher calorific value than ethanol... which is why you can't drive as far on a litre of E10 as you can on a litre of E5, you can't drive as far on a litre of E5 as you can on a litre of neat petrol, and the engine won't make as much power on E10 as on E5, won't make as much power on E5 as on neat petrol. Which is why I say old-skool petrol was better than modern and future petrol despite fuel manufacturers claims.

There are other aspects where the electronics (and sometimes other components) maybe cant adapt enough to other aspects for the dissimilar fuel... e.g's - Idle air control (still need a similar amount of heat/fuel for the engine to idle but due to the different stoch the different fuel needs more air to burn so the throttle valve needs to be wider open at idle). Ethanol burns slower than petrol, so ignition timing needs more advance. Different fuels may have different temperatures/conditions of evaporation/atomisation so may need different amounts of cold start enrichment to petrol.

But I wonder if whoever replied to the letter/email at Nissan read E85 and said no... E85 will be a very different prospect to E10.

 

[Andyzz]

One of the biggest reasons we probably couldn't run Elgrands on (say) E85 (85% ethanol 15% petrol) or E100 (100% ethanol) is the electronics.

The stochiometric ratio of petrol is 14.7:1 (by weight we need 14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel), the stoch for ethanol is 9:1. Electronics can tell if the air/fuel mixture is rich or lean during driving (lambda probes in the exhaust give varying voltage depending on the amount of oxygen in exhaust gasses) and adapt to keep mixture correct by adjusting 'fuel trim' values. Electronics don't directly measure fuel flow but do directly measure air flow, the methodology is that for a given airflow the electronics pulse petrol injectors to provide correct mixture for measured airflow, if this turns out to be a bit rich the electronics reduce fuelling a bit and vice/versa. If mixture needs to be too different from 14.7:1 (like 9:1) the electronics won't be able to adapt to increase fuelling enough before fuel trims are 'maxed out' positive.

There are other aspects where the electronics (and sometimes other components) maybe cant adapt enough to other aspects for the dissimilar fuel... e.g's - Idle air control (still need a similar amount of heat/fuel for the engine to idle but due to the different stoch the different fuel needs more air to burn so the throttle valve needs to be wider open at idle. Ethanol burns slower than petrol, so ignition timing needs more advance. Different fuels may have different temperatures/conditions of evaporation/atomisation so may need different amounts of cold start enrichment to petrol.

But I wonder if whoever replied to the letter/email at Nissan read E85 and said no... E85 will be a very different prospect to E10.

Just sent an email to Nissan Japan to verify that the E10 is not suitable for the Nissen Elgrand

 

[LeStempy]

Although this is all very interesting, at the end of the day we are going to have to use what is at the pumps or convert to LPG. Unless anyone knows of a source of illicit full fat petroleum.

 

[Gwilo365]

Although this is all very interesting, at the end of the day we are going to have to use what is at the pumps or convert to LPG. Unless anyone knows of a source of illicit full fat petroleum.

It's going to be like prohibition era American, speakeasy with supercar, classic car and Elgrand owners skulking aboitt in the dark searching for a litre of Momentum or V-power....

 

[Lpgc]

It's going to be like prohibition era American, speakeasy with supercar, classic car and Elgrand owners skulking aboitt in the dark searching for a litre of Momentum or V-power....

Mad Max scenario hehe

Seriously though, if Nissan do say E10 is not compatible with Elgrands it would beg the question where they set the line... How about E6, E7, E8, E9?
Has anyone asked Nissan if Elgrands are compatible with E5? They seem to be to me...

 

[LeStempy]

Nearest I can find is a Hyundai

 

[Lpgc]

Although this is all very interesting, at the end of the day we are going to have to use what is at the pumps or convert to LPG. Unless anyone knows of a source of illicit full fat petroleum.

Avgas (aeroplane fuel - I know you know about avgas mate because you mentioned it recently in talk about LPG converting spitfires lol), though it will ruin cats very quickly indeed (even by Elgrand standard) and if there is any lead in avgas it will damage lambda sensors.

 

[LeStempy]

Avgas still has lead and AFAIK can only legally be filled into aircraft tanks. It's around £1.65 per litre. But you could convert an Elgrand to run on it I'm sure, then we'd be fine.

 

[LeStempy]

Nearest I can find is a Hyundai

View attachment 41385

Funny how the internet works. I was looking at this drift bus and ended up here...

https://www.part-box.com/cusco-type-rs-1-way-differential-Nissan-Elgrand-e51-and-skyline-v35

 

[Lpgc]

Funny how the internet works. I was looking at this drift bus and ended up here...

https://www.part-box.com/cusco-type-rs-1-way-differential-Nissan-Elgrand-e51-and-skyline-v35

@Lize might want one

The drift bus probably has a welded diff? Seem to see quite a few old BMWs advertised as 'drift car welded diff road legal lots of fun on the road'. Probably interesting to drive but having run an old Jeep with broken/locked rear diff for a few months years ago I know the novelty soon wore off in that case for me, the old 3 series with welded diff and V8 might be a different matter though... or a drift bus.

 

[Lize]

@Lize might want one

I had one on the list of possibilities to be considered after engine changes but not necessary so will probably put the cost into the suspension

 

[Robson3022]

I only run on super. The cost different is negligible

 

[Andyzz]

Had a reply from Nissan.
Thank you again for your email dated September 22, 2020, concerning your Nissan Elgrand.

With regard to your inquiry, we do not recommend you to use E10 for your Elgrand since we have not tested if it is suitable or not.

We hope the information will be useful for you.


Sincerely yours,


Chikako TAGUCHI
Customer Communication Center
Nissan MOTOR Co., LTD.

So I think basically they don't know in Japan they only have 3% ethanol.

As far as I can see there is no problem because you have a choices they will not be withdrawing E5 it will be sold alongside E10.
Super petrol will continue to have E5 for the next 5 years.
I think the biggest problem will be some petrol stations will not have the tank capacity to have both especially small petrol stations.
Also Lucas doesn't a additive to stop the harmful effects of E10 called "Lucas Safe Guard Ethanol Fuel Treatment" which will add about 3 1/2p per litre to the cost of the petrol using E10.
The main problem with E10.
When it gets contaminated with water the water becomes corrosive.
If you park your vehicle up for a long periods of time E10 will go dead and it could be hard to start the car so no good for long-term storage or if you are not using the vehicle a lot.
So really I don't think we've got anything to worry about for a good few more years yet.
If you want to get ethanol out of petrol it's very simple put 25L of fuel in a plastic container and add 1L of water shake it up leave it 24 hours for the ethanol to combined with the water, petrol float on water just pour the petrol off the top it is that simple.
When I went round Europe last year there was no problems getting E5 in Belgium Germany or Poland.
At the moment we don't know how much E5 and E10 petrol will be but E10 is more expensive to produce.

 

[Hallam]

I've tried 95, 97 & 99, TBH I couldn't tell the difference but that was just to test things, I want to be sure my motor lasts so I only use Tesco momentum unless I'm caught short.

I"m the same! I religiously use Tesco Momentum as its the only fuel other than Shell V Power that is 99 Ron, and its the cheapest petrol station around!! like you say unless I get caught short!! so I just did a long journey to Amsterdam! I ran 99 on the way out there and got 9.3 km/l then on the way home I used regular 95 Ron and I pumped all the tyres up to 38psi (most were around 31 32) and I struggled to get better than 9.0 it went down to 8.9 at a point and I had to really drive like a granny to get it back up to 9 hahaha the only thing I haven't factored in to this experiment is elevation and if it was more uphill on the way home and how much that would of affected it! now I need to work out if the extra .3 or .4 worked out better value than spending the extra 7 or 8p per litre!!